Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

hahaha, great thread Pat, you are not a moron   

William,

We're all morons, ...........just on different subjects.   

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,

Since when do we judge golf courses from overhead aerials ?

Show me a picture of that hole from the golfer's eyes.
And then tell me how it plays

Shel,

Take a look at the other photos Bryan Izzatt supplied and then tell me what you think the site looked like pre construction.

Do you think Tom, Ben and Bill left the site exactly as they found it ?




Many are ducking the question, probably because they're afraid to offend Tom Doak,
Is there anybody who wouldn't accuse Rees of introducing mounds on steroids ?

That the mounds don't look UN-natural and out of place ?

C'mon, start being candid !

[/quote]

Patrick:

The overhead picture was a response to Bob who claimed Black Lake was "as good as it gets".

I've played there, and didn't find nearly that good and so I went to look for some pictures.  The front page of Black Lake's website had only one picture and that was it. 

I agree that we don't judge golf courses solely based on aerial pictures;  I didn't.

Patrick, since you can't produce a photo of a Rees green complex that ties in to the surrrounding land-forms as well as this one.  Just name one.  Name one hole that you have played designed by Rees Jones where the green complex tied into the surrounding features as well as this one.  Just one hole.  Any hole.  Name it.

Bart

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bart,

Let's start with the 11th at Atlantic, another par 3 and a fantastic hole.

I don't know how to post pictures but I believe a picture of this hole might have been previously posted.
If not, perhaps someone can post a picture of it

Or the 4th at Atlantic, another terrific par 3 that blends in with the surrounds.

That's two par 3's from just one course, now what ?

[V. Kmetz]

PM,

I "judged" this hole from an aerial...b/c it look like it was designed from a plane.

It might be a fine hole, but 9 tees (that we can see)?

cheers

vk

[Mike Sweeney]

Patrick, since you can't produce a photo of a Rees green complex that ties in to the surrrounding land-forms as well as this one.  Just name one.  Name one hole that you have played designed by Rees Jones where the green complex tied into the surrounding features as well as this one.  Just one hole.  Any hole.  Name it.

Bart

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[Patrick_Mucci]

Bart,

Which Rees Jones courses have you played ?

[V. Kmetz]

another eye in the sky look at Black Lake; the yellow line is 260 yards between that green and whichever tee

[Bob_Garvelink]

Rees Jones knows how to build quality golf courses as well.  My personal favorite is Black lake in Onaway.  Talk about a hidden gem.........this course is about as good as it gets and sometimes you wonder why you don't live in Northern Michigan!

Bob:

What do you like about Black Lake?   

Bart


Hey Bart,

I am a big fan of "secluded golf".  You have been to Onaway so you get the idea.  As far as Blake Lake goes its one of my favorite courses and I play it every year.  I love courses that are cut into the woods and the tight fairways paired with fairway bunkers make the course a unique challenge.  Additionally the approach shots provide the golfer with a number of risk reward shots depending on hole location.  The course is always in amazing shape the the greens are very fair.  Heck....you can play the course for $30 so how can you beat that?  Never met anybody that didn't really like the course to be honest with you.  Now with that said I have not had the ability to travel the country and play the big boys yet and there is something special about a course in the middle of the "sticks" that makes me want to keep coming back to play.  Anything in particular that you did not like about the course?  

Cheers!

Bob.........and only a few more weeks until us Michiganders will be hitting the links

[Bob_Garvelink]

Rees Jones knows how to build quality golf courses as well.  My personal favorite is Black lake in Onaway.  Talk about a hidden gem.........this course is about as good as it gets and sometimes you wonder why you don't live in Northern Michigan!

Bob:

From the front page of Black Lake's own website...I kid you not





Bart

Bart,

I agree with you that the sand trap is a bit much although I don't think this hole is a good representation for Black Lake.  Furthermore, I love this hole as the last time I played it I hit a 3-wood 2 inches from the cup and I didn't miss the putt either

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,

Which Rees Jones courses have you played ?

Patrick:

I haven't played Atlantic.

I have played:

Golf Club of the Everglades, Naples, FL
Longboat Key Club - Islandside Course
Olde Florida Golf Club, Naples, FL
Black Lake Golf Course, Onaway, MI
Charleston National Golf Club, Mount Pleasant, SC
Graysburg Hills Golf Course, Chucky, TN
Meadowview Golf Club, Kingsport, TN

I am awaiting photos of Atlantic....wish we could discuss a course that we both have seen.

Bob:

Please go play "the big boys"  and get back to me on Black Lake.  Black Lake is penal golf, mainly devoid of strategy.  The quality and shaping of the green contours are average at best.  The routing is not walking friendly.  The playing corridors are too narrow.  When we meet I will introduce you to a number of people that didn't like Black Lake.  I would give Black Lake a 4.

Bart

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bart,

A course I wish I had played is "The Bridge" since his marching orders from the developer were "views", hence I'd like to see the terrain and wonder what would have been had the mandate been "holes"

I think you'd like Atlantic.

What about Ocean Forest ?

But, back to the pictured hole.

[Steve Okula]

hahaha, great thread Pat, you are not a moron   

William,

We're all morons, ...........just on different subjects.   

Pat, you should credit Will Rogers for that one.

[Niall C]

What would you be saying about this hole if Rees Jones had been the architect ?

Patrick

The point you're trying to make, or at least I think you're trying to make, about herd mentality on this site is a fair one. I think we're all predisposed to be influenced by previous work of the architect involved.

For what its worth, I think its a really nice looking hole with great contouring internally and also on the green surrounds particularly on the right hand side. The ridge to the right of the photo presents a nice boundary where you're dead on one side and and perhaps looking good on the other if the ball does indeed bounce and run round like I imagine it would do. The back right bunker perhaps keeps you honest in this respect in that if you go too long the bunker will stop your ball running round to the hole. Of course I'm assuming the hole is fairly short (how long is it ?) and that the green will be fairly fast and firm (is that possible in Florida ?).

Like Sean, I would probably think the hole a better one without sand. To my eye their is plenty of interest that it's not required and like you I suspect, it makes the transition into the surrounding landlforms look rather clunky in part. I'd prefer to see some vegetation you could play out off but not familiar with what grows in Florida to say whether thats a realistic possibility.

Back left mounding - I agree, doesn't look natural. Looks like a series of spoil heaps that have grown over, and none the worse for that. I'm not too fussed about the trend to make everything look absolutely natural. Perhaps that's because I've grown up playing courses where greens and tees are puished up against boundary fences and walls with caravan park and the like as backdrops.

One final comment. I would guess the path up to the next hole is off the back left corner of the green and then goes up left to right as we look at the picture. If so, nicely done as it looks, as far as I can't really see it ! , to be pretty inobtrusive.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Re-the bunkering.  Guys, unless you haven't noticed it's a sandy site.  See the sand dune just beyond the green?  Aesthetically do you think it would look more or less natural with fewer bunkers?

[Tom Dunne]

I don't know how controversial the thread is, but I do think this is one of the more controversial holes at Streamsong. Tom Doak clearly thought so much of that green site that he went out of his way to include it--after playing the hole, the golfer has to turn around and cross the same pedestrian bridge, then trudge up a hill to the 8th. I'd say that creates an imperfection in terms of the flow of the routing, and I wonder if the nature of the hole will lead to slow play issues, but it's still a really fun shot from both the ~190 yard and ~165 tees.

I'd be curious, Tom, if there were ever any alternative routings that excluded this hole and what might have happened had you chosen to take a pass on this green site.  

[Niall C]

Re-the bunkering.  Guys, unless you haven't noticed it's a sandy site.  See the sand dune just beyond the green?  Aesthetically do you think it would look more or less natural with fewer bunkers?

Jud

Whether or not its a sandy site is to an extent neither here nor there, the question I think is how these bunkers relate to their immediate surroundings and they tie into the surrounding landforms.

Niall

[Dan Herrmann]

The original question is easily dismissed because there's no way Rees Jones' mind would even conceive of such a hole.

This is prototypical Rees:


This too is prototypical Rees (a different course):

[jeffwarne]

Patrick,
Hopefully Tom will come on here and correct any/all flaws in my theory.

the "artificial mounds" you are referring to were there as a result of years of mining and no doubt, along with (or even in spite of) the water were what attracted Tom/Bill to go there iin the routing.
As far as the # of bunkers, it appears the green was simply cut into the sand debris mining hill and that the bunkers were a natural result of opening up the scarred land to shape green.
I don't think anyone could find fault in the actual hole, no matter who had designed it (although I think we can agree the aestheitics might've come out differently)
the green itself is incredible.
It's a spectacular hole, and one that kind've sneaks up on you as you walk from the previous green, which is set down a little.

It seems to me the ONLY risk in the hole was fitting it into the routing, as those who are judging the hole itself by pictures are missing that portion that I attempted to draw a bit of humor to in an earlier post .
(Neil your guess on the next tee location is about 180 degrees wrong)

Is the hole worth walking over a bridge, walking back over the bridge, then walking quite a ways along a cart path and up to the next elevated tee? Obviously Tom felt it was.
My comment would be that after 2 plays, and rethinking about the holes,#8 was the only hole I could not specifically remember, as you mentally get lost trying to remember  how you got there.

No way he does that to the routing unless he felt the hole was worth it.

This , and other severe portions of the property would seem the most challenging parts of the routing. I for one would be interested to hear his thoughts on the process ,what other spectacular parts of the property were considered , but scrapped, for similar reasons.
ex. was the clubhouse always planned where it was , and was the bye hole ever considered as part of the routing?

Also, were there any other spectacular/unique areas of the course that presented similar routing challenges that also ended up in the routing and how were those issues solved, and what compromises, if any had to be made?

Tom Dunne-Our posts have crossed-I guess we can play Lekarica if Tom bans us from SS
and to answer your question, there were 3 groups on the tee in the BB event I played in

[Tom_Doak]

I have never gone up to Black Lake.  Some people locally say good things about it.  However, the key point about the hole depicted is that it is an exact carbon copy of the 16th hole at Pinehurst #7 that Rees built 25 years ago, airlifted to northern Michigan.  

Of course, Pat loves templates, so perhaps he can explain the timeless appeal of this one.

P.S. to Patrick:  Those "mounds" behind the green are 80-90 feet higher than the surface of the lake.  No golf course architect has ever built anything half as big, and if you had seen the machine that built them, you'd understand why not.  The only "earthmoving" that was done on this hole was to soften the tilt of the green from right to left ... we spent several days on that, over three attempts.  And the main criticism I've heard of the hole is that we still left too much tilt in the green!

[Mike_Young]

I just don't get it.  This site is really out of things to talk about.  This thread is no different than discussing a political preference on Fox or MSNBC.  It is a given that most of us on this site prefer a particular type of golf design.  I do.  So why would we expect a fair debate of a totally different style and all I can really see that is being discussed regarding design is how one "ties" a green into the surrounds.  We all do it differently.  A much more interesting comparison for this site would be to ask the same question between TD and Seth Raynor because most on here already have their mind made up when it comes to RJ.  As for Black Lake...I play it once or twice a year.  It's not a walking course but I enjoy the place even though I might enjoy Belvedere more. 
The Streamsong hole in question is a very good golf hole...obviously many people enjoy that style...just think what Monet could have done with the Mona Lisa ;Dbut then again why???

[Dan Herrmann]

Mike - why?  It's winter, we love golf but can't play, and it's fun to discuss

[Tom_Doak]

I don't know how controversial the thread is, but I do think this is one of the more controversial holes at Streamsong. Tom Doak clearly thought so much of that green site that he went out of his way to include it--after playing the hole, the golfer has to turn around and cross the same pedestrian bridge, then trudge up a hill to the 8th. I'd say that creates an imperfection in terms of the flow of the routing, and I wonder if the nature of the hole will lead to slow play issues, but it's still a really fun shot from both the ~190 yard and ~165 tees.

I'd be curious, Tom, if there were ever any alternative routings that excluded this hole and what might have happened had you chosen to take a pass on this green site.  

Actually, Tom, I've explained somewhere already that we were kind of forced into this hole.  Two of the holes we liked best in the overall routing were the 15th Red and the 6th Blue, and it was imperative to fit a hole in between them so that the routings could cross over after that.  (Bill was also attached to the 18th Red by that point, so there was no going out the back of the green to the next hole, which would have been awful anyway if you think about where the cart path would have had to go.)

Bill had done one routing that had a short par-3 jammed into the tee side of the lake, between the first tee of the Blue and the 15th green of the Red.  That was part of the routing that got us up to 36 holes, but there were problems with it.  There just wasn't much room for a hole there, and I didn't want two short par-3's in a row (5th and 7th).  Putting the tee back would have been dangerous, because players coming off the 6th green would have been coming around the dune and walking right back into players on #7 if they were waiting.  The bank down to the lake on that side was steep and not very stable, so it would have been a safety hazard for golfers who fanned their tee shots to the right and wanted to try and play a recovery shot.  And, finally, to get any length on the hole we would have had to push it back close to the 15th on the Red course, and Bill was concerned about spoiling the view coming up that hole.

So, there was an alternative hole, but it didn't work very well.  When I walked around the course with all of my associates, I explained the problems with the hole, and Brian Schneider suggested going over the lake to the green site that has received so much comment here.  It was actually a green site suggested by the client in the very beginning of the job, but from a different angle (over by 15th Red green, actually) -- I did not like the approach from that angle slamming straight into the dune wall at the back, but I really liked it from this new angle suggested by Brian.  I thought the hole would be dramatic and maybe a bit controversial, but it was certainly better than any of our other options there.  So that's the hole we built.

[Adam Clayman]

The walk back reminded me of Pete's 'Nature's Course" on the Valley nine in Kohler. The golfer is immersed in nature, between holes, and is able to just soak it in. Some Darwinian aficionado wannabe might call it "a come to Jesus moment", as you walk over the water, on the low lying bridge.    

I like how the hill beyond only partially obscures the long view, allowing a glimpse of distant land. And how that opening, along with fronting bunker, create the line of both instinct and charm.

Bart, I think the 15th at Quintera has a green site that actually flows seamlessly off of a natural feature. It's uniqueness is both appreciable, and a pity.

Pat, I'd say "Rees, you forgot the front right bunker,"

[Phil McDade]

Re-the bunkering.  Guys, unless you haven't noticed it's a sandy site.  See the sand dune just beyond the green?  Aesthetically do you think it would look more or less natural with fewer bunkers?

Jud:

I really like the back two bunkers flanking the left and right sides of the green; they sort of bleed out of the sandy deposit mounds. From the other photo threads of the courses, it "looks" similar to much of the rest of the course(s), in terms of transitions between greens, closely mown non-green surfaces, and the crappy whispy stuff on other portions of the course. In other words, it seems to fit.

The fronting bunker -- or the right half of it -- looks "manufactured" to a greater degree than the other two bunkers. And there is some view -- Sean Arble has expressed this I believe -- that architects ought to avoid the double penalty of having both a water carry and a bunker carry facing the golfer. But, Shel suggests the hole is not penal in that regard given its length, so the fronting bunker really doesn't bother me. The more I look at it -- and Tom's response indicates some justification for this -- the hole has a vaguely Redan-like feel to it -- with the pin shown, that looks like a pretty cool shot one could attempt to hit a draw to the far right side and use the contours and tilt of the green to get the ball close to the hole (and avoid the fronting bunker -- a key element of a Redan's strategy.)

I can't make a judgement about comparing it to a Rees Jones design. But from what I've seen of each one's work here on GCA, it seems to be more of the Doak naturalistic style than the Jones highly manufactured style. But, that's just based on photos here on GCA.

[Bob_Garvelink]

Bob:

"Please go play "the big boys"  and get back to me on Black Lake.  Black Lake is penal golf, mainly devoid of strategy.  The quality and shaping of the green contours are average at best.  The routing is not walking friendly.  The playing corridors are too narrow.  When we meet I will introduce you to a number of people that didn't like Black Lake.  I would give Black Lake a 4."Bart

Bart,

I highly disagree with your assessment of Black Lake but thats the beauty of this forum and thats the beauty of golf in general.  We all value certain things differently while assessing a course.  Neverless, I feel that a "4" is a bit low for a course that is constantly mentioned as one of the top 100 best public courses in the U.S.

Cheers!