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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2013, 09:53:17 PM »
Pat,

I don't want to speak for Bill, but isn't that how the land was left after Mosaic's mining operation?


Not based on the pre/during construction photos I saw, but, they may not have been all encompassing.

How many cubic yards of dirt were moved ?


Obviously that's not the native landscape, but it was the nature of the property that Tom Doak and C&C encountered. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Tom  Doak would be eminently more qualified to answer that question.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2013, 09:54:00 PM »
I used one of Rees Jones shapers for a practice area project this summer at a course you guys know that is designed by one of the favorites here.  He was able to shape what was needed BUT it is just not what they do.  I can appreciate the work and strategy of many RJ courses but they choose not to "find" the course but to "place" the course.  I honestly think that there are many architects who feel that the irregularities of green surfaces and bunker edges as well as fairway shaping on a course like Streamsong are going backwards and in their minds they feel and sell that they should take those very features out of a course in order to make it a more technically sound golf course.  East Lake is a good example.  I can understand it  but it is a completely different style of golf course design and this site needs to recognize it as another style and not as a "bad" style.  If I can like the clubhouse at Streamsong and the clubhouse at Merion then we should be able to like RJ courses as well as TD courses ;D  
I would answer differently if Pat had said JE instead of RJ. ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2013, 09:54:44 PM »
Ress would have never ever ever taken this project.

A) Because you are channeling Rees?

B) Because Rees doesn't like money?

C) Because Rees is incompetent?

If Rees' courses don't fit your aesthetic, fine. They are all playable and challenging.

This is shooting fish in a barrel. There is absolutely no argument that one could/will make against Pat.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2013, 09:59:04 PM »
Pat,  I didn't see the land before the hole was built.  Tom's post seems to indicate that he thought the site dictated the hole.  Perhaps he can give us an idea what was there.  Remember, the site had been strip mined for phosphate and the normally flat ground was disturbed significantly including the creation of many of the "dunes".  I saw the courses.  I actually birdied the hole in question.  It does not look manufactured although. it does have a lot of trouble.  Nonetheless, given its length, it is not too severe in my opinion.  As for Rees, I haven't played as many courses as you, but I have yet to see anything that works this well.  More typical has been his work on the 2nd hole at Medinah where, in the interest of faster green speeds and mutiple pin positions, he took a natural green tumbling down a hill and bulldozed a relatively flat plateau.  In his defense, the tournament powers asked for a change but his lacked naturalism.  I compare it to Mungeam's work on # 3 at Olympia Fields where his modifications to a very natural green allowed for more pin positions but preserved the character and look of the green.  I suppose its a matter of taste but we know what Tom built and we know whether it is consistent with his other work.  If Rees had done the same, it might not have been as well received, but I suspect that we have yet to see him build something like that.  It would be interesting if we get the chance.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 10:46:20 PM by SL_Solow »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2013, 10:02:51 PM »
you squeeze the lemons you are given from client....hopefully the juice is worth the squeeze.

Ress would have never ever ever taken this project.

looks good to me, wouldn't want 18 holes of it, but certainly is an improvement to the what the land that was there before.

I'm curious why you think Rees would never have taken this project?
No doubt this and all sites have challenges, but if I remember correctly the chosen architects of both courses were quite excited about the uniqueness of the land given to them , particularly given where it was located.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2013, 10:04:43 PM »
Ress would have never ever ever taken this project.

A) Because you are channeling Rees?

B) Because Rees doesn't like money?

C) Because Rees is incompetent?

If Rees' courses don't fit your aesthetic, fine. They are all playable and challenging.

This is shooting fish in a barrel. There is absolutely no argument that one could/will make against Pat.

dude, i have no idea what you are talking about.  i don't know what "channeling" rees even means.  but i am sure rees like money just like we all do, but i seriously doubt he would have taken this project on, maybe so, do you know if he would?.  

no, rees isn't incompetent, why do you say that???  i have probably played more rounds on a rees jones course than any other course i have played in my life.  rees does decent work, just not the type work streamsong is.

why does everything have to be an argument with you?


Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2013, 10:13:36 PM »
I'd say he has gotten much better at finding green sites and employing the right guys to shape them.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2013, 10:15:46 PM »

Please show me one Rees Jones hole that has a green sited and blended into the surrounds as nicely as this one.

Bart,

You're kidding about the green blending in with the surrounds, aren't you ?

Isn't it the contrast which makes the hole so outstanding in look ?
 

Please show me one where the aesthetic balance is this nice.  

You're kidding about the aesthectic balance, aren't you ?

Pat, please show a Rees Jones green complex that has tie-ins to the terrain as nice as this?  Please show me a Rees Jones hole that has better aesthetic balance?  No joke.  Please show me a Rees Jones hole that would make me think this is possibly his work or inferior to his work?

Bart

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2013, 10:18:32 PM »
SL,

The fact is that that's not the natural terrain in those parts of Florida, so the idea of fitting the course into the land like a foot goes into a shoe is ridiculous.

It's a manufactured site irrespective of who did the alterations.

Many have said that the course looks nothing like Florida, including Tom Doak who stated that if he had to guess which state the site was in, Florida would have been his 47th guess.

So, if Tom Doak, the architect who designed the course, declared the site alien to "Florida" how can anyone state that the course fits the terrain ?

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2013, 10:30:32 PM »
Pat -

What does the origin or the statehood of the terrain have to do with whether the course fits it?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2013, 10:35:55 PM »

Look at the tie ins to existing terrain.  They are very good.  One of the things I've always liked about Talking Stick North is how well the new areas tie into the existing.  It can't be easy. 

Bill,

Are you stating that the terrain in Bowling Green, Florida looks like ?

That the photo represents the natural terrain that the course was built on ?


Step away from the martini shaker and rephrase those questions.  I have no idea what you are talking about. 

Do you know what was there before construction of the course?  Are you Karnak?   ;D

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2013, 10:39:55 PM »
What would you be saying about this hole if Rees Jones had been the architect ?


Tom Doak is far more powerful than we can even fathom.


Also I'd probably be questioning the attribution. Even if this site was somehow manufactured, I've never seen a Rees Jones hole that had half as interesting contours and did not have bunkers that were positioned at 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock. Also I agree with Bart, it ties into the surrounds very very well.

Bob_Garvelink

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2013, 10:51:45 PM »
Rees Jones knows how to build quality golf courses as well.  My personal favorite is Black lake in Onaway.  Talk about a hidden gem.........this course is about as good as it gets and sometimes you wonder why you don't live in Northern Michigan!
"Pure Michigan"

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2013, 10:53:05 PM »
Rees Jones knows how to build quality golf courses as well.  My personal favorite is Black lake in Onaway.  Talk about a hidden gem.........this course is about as good as it gets and sometimes you wonder why you don't live in Northern Michigan!

Bob:

What do you like about Black Lake?   ???

Bart

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2013, 10:54:10 PM »
I have to agree with Mike Young.  Rees has his own style and it depends on what the developer wants.

Maybe this is Rees attempt at minimal work.



What if Tom Doak did this work?


Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2013, 10:57:06 PM »
Rees Jones knows how to build quality golf courses as well.  My personal favorite is Black lake in Onaway.  Talk about a hidden gem.........this course is about as good as it gets and sometimes you wonder why you don't live in Northern Michigan!

Bob:

From the front page of Black Lake's own website...I kid you not



Bart

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2013, 11:00:49 PM »
Pat;  Sorry but for once you miss the point.  If the land was alterd prior to the architects arrival, then that canvas is what they have to work with.  The logical consequence of your post is that Tom and Bill/Ben, in order to build a natural/minimalist site on the course, were required to undo the strip mining by bulldozing it flat like the surrounding terrain and then start over.  Surely you cannot be suggesting that.  The architect is given the site.  He decides the best way to work with what he is given.  How much earth is moved and how it is shaped is part of what defines the architecture.  It is, to my way of thinking, not the most important factor in evaluating the work.  Routing, challenge, shot variety, aesthetics etc all come together in a package that helps one decide his opinion of the work.  But if one is blessed with a site that has greater features than the surrounding property, it is entirely natural and appropriate to take advantage of those features.  If the architect had manufactured them on flat ground and they had come out as well, it would probably have been more costly but I would have congratulated him nonetheless.  But it takes a diferent kind of artistic vision to "find" the routing and the holes on a landscape and to augment them in a manner that creates intersting courses such as these.  Again, it is a matter of taste as to whether the process matters to you.  But the work stands on its own.  To answer your original question, if Rees had built the hole I would have applauded.  However as I suggested previously, it would have been out of character for the work I have seen.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 09:11:50 AM by SL_Solow »

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2013, 11:31:05 PM »
Rees Jones knows how to build quality golf courses as well.  My personal favorite is Black lake in Onaway.  Talk about a hidden gem.........this course is about as good as it gets and sometimes you wonder why you don't live in Northern Michigan!

Bob:

From the front page of Black Lake's own website...I kid you not



Bart

C'mon Bart, if it weren't for the 9 tees, the 100 yard fingered bunker, the cost to build, maintain and irrigate it would be a terrific hole.  Great for golf calendars too.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2013, 12:27:04 AM »
hahaha, great thread Pat, you are not a moron   ;D
It's all about the golf!

Sam Morrow

Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2013, 12:32:24 AM »
I really like this thread and it's actually going the exact direction I thought it would take, peer pressure is a beautiful thing.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2013, 02:03:10 AM »
I would hope Rees wouldn't fall victim to the water eye candy, but I don't know his work so I couldn't say. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2013, 03:45:11 AM »
Sean,

I will accept that the water might be called "eye candy" but how could you NOT build a green on this spot? I suppose you might even call the large dune behind and left of the green "eye candy." So what? It is an awesome setting for a green complex, right?

What has not been mentioned is the tremendous movement of the green.That is what stands out to me as being the key challenge of playing the hole well, plus the front left bunker. The rest of the landforms are just pleasant distractions.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2013, 04:17:35 AM »
Sean,

I will accept that the water might be called "eye candy" but how could you NOT build a green on this spot? I suppose you might even call the large dune behind and left of the green "eye candy." So what? It is an awesome setting for a green complex, right?

What has not been mentioned is the tremendous movement of the green.That is what stands out to me as being the key challenge of playing the hole well, plus the front left bunker. The rest of the landforms are just pleasant distractions.

Bill

I was being a bit sarcastic.  It seems all archies want to build bunkers next water these days.  Its a bad trend and very difficult to pull off aesthetically.  If water is there, use it well, not just for eye candy.

I can understand the bunker to the right which mitigates against indiscriminate shots kicking in from that direction and enhances hole locations on the side of the green.  The back left bunker is a bit odd looking, but I can see its value in creating fun hole locations on the left of the green. For overly cautious tee shots which now must come out of that bunker toward water with a fall-away front of the green looks to be solid design.  Still, for me there is a fundamental flaw with the forward bunker - it is unnecessary and eliminates the prime reason for the green site.  I expect it may be there to balance the "scene".  Which means the primary question could be sand or no sand?  If there is to be sand, aesthetically, to balance the scene three is best.   It may be reasonable to get away with one.  Strategically, the back bunker can go because chipping from the swale accomplishes virtually the same thing as the bunker - in fact for me, I would prefer to be in sand.  However, aesthetically, if there is to be one bunker, that is probably the best place for it, but I think the right side, strategically is the best place.  

No question the the best part of the hole is the green.  It looks very fine!

It would be interesting if someone could photo shop the other choices of

1. No bunkers

2. No bunker up front - which I think will look weird

3. Only back left bunker

4. Only right bunker

I ask this again and again, why do archies stick bunkers next to water?

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 11:47:47 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2013, 04:52:30 AM »

Please show me one Rees Jones hole that has a green sited and blended into the surrounds as nicely as this one.

Bart,

You're kidding about the green blending in with the surrounds, aren't you ?

Isn't it the contrast which makes the hole so outstanding in look ?
 

Please show me one where the aesthetic balance is this nice.  

You're kidding about the aesthectic balance, aren't you ?

An man was sat in the barber's shop waiting to have his hair cut when, out of the corner of his eye, he spotted an owl perched on a nearby table.

"Disgusting" he said to the customer next to him. Why do people feel the need to keep dead animals? You can tell by the state of the feathers that the thing was already decomposing before anybody stuffed it. Why don't people just let nature take its course?"

"Your right" said the other man. "And look at the eyes. They're so lifeless. Horrible."

"Look at the talons" said the first man. "In the wild those would be tensed and ready to reaction to the slightest movement or sound. That thing couldn't catch a cold."

The two men nodded to one another and went back to flicking through the old golf magazines left lying around them.

Ten minutes passed and a it came time for the first man to have his hair cut. He got to his feet and, upon doing so, the owl flew out of the shop.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are you ready for a really controversial thread ?
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2013, 05:31:12 AM »
Bart,

Since when do we judge golf courses from overhead aerials ?

Show me a picture of that hole from the golfer's eyes.
And then tell me how it plays

Shel,

Take a look at the other photos Bryan Izzatt supplied and then tell me what you think the site looked like pre construction.

Do you think Tom, Ben and Bill left the site exactly as they found it ?




Many are ducking the question, probably because they're afraid to offend Tom Doak,
Is there anybody who wouldn't accuse Rees of introducing mounds on steroids ?

That the mounds don't look UN-natural and out of place ?

C'mon, start being candid ! ;D


[/quote]
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 05:37:22 AM by Patrick_Mucci »