[Tommy Williamsen]

I belong to a course in MD that has a number of what I would call awkward tee shots.  They just keep you off balance.  A few of them are blind but others just make you feel uncomfortable on the tee.  Number 8 maybe the most troubling.  From the back tee the hole is played over a lake, that really is not in play.  In one sense it is a dogleg right but isn't really.  The hole is straight but the back tee is back and to the right so the landing area is pretty narrow because the fairway plays as if it were canted.  It really calls for a big fade but fade it a tad too much and you are in some deep rough.  Hit it straight on the wrong line and the left rough is in play.  Hook it and call the undertaker. I really like the hole and it is the only one I still play from the back tee because of the challenge.
Narrowness can make for a difficult tee shot but not really uncomfortable.  So can a hole with water on both sides of the fairway.  But I'm not talking about that. 
It seems to me that tee shots that make a person uneasy sets the hole up.  I find that in the cause of "wideness" tee shots are taken for granted.

[Jeb Bearer]

I think that excessive narrowness becomes a burden on the higher handicapper. If the angle is less exacting from the member's tee on that hole then maybe it works. What course is it? I don't know where in MD you are but I live in DC area.

IMHO it is generally better to have a wide fairway with a preferred position. Let's say you have a situation where the fairway is 60 yards wide, but a shot from anywhere in the fairway other than, say, a 20 yard area leaves a much more difficult approach. Everyone will be able to play this hole, but it will become more and more intimidating over time for the better player as he realizes that there is indeed a price to be paid for a mishit.

It is also possible to make a tee shot (or any shot) much more intimidating visually than it actually is. I believe Pete Dye is a big proponent of this, as was Mackenzie.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jeb, I think that visually intimidating tee shots as you describe are awkward in their own way. I like it when the designer keeps me a little offf balance.  I understand about wideness being important but still think that periodically should make a player shiver and not just because of OB or water.  My club is Four Streams by the way.

[Jeb Bearer]

I hear you. I like the idea of not using OB and water -- finding a more creative/original way to do it is always good.

[John Ezekowitz]

I think two types of subtle design choices make for awkward tee shots.

The first is when the tee box does not align with the direction in which the shot must be played. I find it much easier to align myself when the tee box is pointing where I want to hit it.

The second is when the fairway of a hole turns one direction, but slopes another. I know some on here do not like it, but I think this is a viable and interesting design choice that, if not repeated to often, adds variety to a round. It is very disquieting to try to shape a tee shot knowing that the ball will bounce the other way and you have little margin for error.

[Sean_A]

The second is when the fairway of a hole turns one direction, but slopes another. I know some on here do not like it, but I think this is a viable and interesting design choice that, if not repeated to often, adds variety to a round. It is very disquieting to try to shape a tee shot knowing that the ball will bounce the other way and you have little margin for error.

Yes, quite awkward/difficult.  So is hitting a drive when the wind blows opposite the dogleg. 

I agree its fine to have a few awkward tee shots (or just plain difficult), but it can get old quickly if over-done.  I am with Jeb in that awkwardness can be created without making a drive necessarily difficult.  The thing is we all have different triggers for awkwardness.  I have one about crossing creeks.  I find it hard to commit to a drive when water in range crosses the fairway, but I hate to lay-up enough to totally take water out of play.  Its especially irksome when I know I can reach the green in two with the aggressive play, but not with a lay-up.  I am not saying these shots should be eliminated, but I don't like em' - which is why I find them awkward.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

For me awkwardness often comes from your own game.  I find all of the par 3s at my home club have awkward tee shots for me because all four, to greater or lesser extent, favour a faded shot.  My shape is a draw and consequently I find each of these holes makes me uncomfortable on the tee.

[jeffwarne]

I hear you. I like the idea of not using OB and water -- finding a more creative/original way to do it is always good.

I thought Streamsong Blue did this very well.
Fairway bunkers placed just at the distance to bring out your inner mediocrity.
Had to be committed to a line, and the temptation was to to not committ, but hedge.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Years back, I recall a client (and good golfer) commenting as we walked around one of our construction sites that the tee shots were "really comfortable."  The basics of the comfortable tee shot include full visibility, and a gentle valley to hit to, at least by the ones golfers like him tell me are comfy.  Having some scattered bunkers that don't require direct carry and help define the line are in the mix somewhere, too.

Of course, the king of comfort is the Faz, as nearly every one of his tee shots fits this category.

[Tom_Doak]

I hear you. I like the idea of not using OB and water -- finding a more creative/original way to do it is always good.

I thought Streamsong Blue did this very well.
Fairway bunkers placed just at the distance to bring out your inner mediocrity.
Had to be committed to a line, and the temptation was to to not committ, but hedge.

That's exactly what I'm going for!

One of the things Mr. Dye taught me was that very good players are generally very risk-averse.  You can't stop them from getting close to the hole if they aim close to the hole, but you can get them not to aim at it.  Pete does it with water; I do it by leaving an "undefended" side of the fairway or green that tempts the good player NOT to attack.

I've always thought this would work well at the Tour level, but have never had the chance to find out.  It was working just great at the Kiwi Challenge at Cape Kidnappers for about 12 holes -- lots of pars, not many birdies -- until Hunter Mahan, who was behind, started attacking the hole, and then all the others had to follow suit.  I think Mahan shot 30 on the back.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I've always thought this would work well at the Tour level, but have never had the chance to find out.  It was working just great at the Kiwi Challenge at Cape Kidnappers for about 12 holes -- lots of pars, not many birdies -- until Hunter Mahan, who was behind, started attacking the hole, and then all the others had to follow suit.  I think Mahan shot 30 on the back.

Hey, These Guys Are Good.

Not the men, but Sebonack will get the best women this summer.

The course is supposedly tough, especially the greens....if they struggle, will you have a wry smile?  They were at Oakmont a couple years ago.

[Nigel Islam]

I hear you. I like the idea of not using OB and water -- finding a more creative/original way to do it is always good.

I thought Streamsong Blue did this very well.
Fairway bunkers placed just at the distance to bring out your inner mediocrity.
Had to be committed to a line, and the temptation was to to not committ, but hedge.

That's exactly what I'm going for!

One of the things Mr. Dye taught me was that very good players are generally very risk-averse.  You can't stop them from getting close to the hole if they aim close to the hole, but you can get them not to aim at it.  Pete does it with water; I do it by leaving an "undefended" side of the fairway or green that tempts the good player NOT to attack.

I've always thought this would work well at the Tour level, but have never had the chance to find out.  It was working just great at the Kiwi Challenge at Cape Kidnappers for about 12 holes -- lots of pars, not many birdies -- until Hunter Mahan, who was behind, started attacking the hole, and then all the others had to follow suit.  I think Mahan shot 30 on the back.

The one thing that amazes me about watching a tough hole on tour is how ALL the players basically hit some version of the same shot. They are all basically on the same line and have the same miss be it L,R, long or short. The quality of the individual shots differ, but their thought process is pretty much the same.

[Tom_Doak]

I've always thought this would work well at the Tour level, but have never had the chance to find out.  It was working just great at the Kiwi Challenge at Cape Kidnappers for about 12 holes -- lots of pars, not many birdies -- until Hunter Mahan, who was behind, started attacking the hole, and then all the others had to follow suit.  I think Mahan shot 30 on the back.

Hey, These Guys Are Good.

Not the men, but Sebonack will get the best women this summer.

The course is supposedly tough, especially the greens....if they struggle, will you have a wry smile?  They were at Oakmont a couple years ago.

My concern is that Sebonack will be set up too tough for the Women's Open.

There aren't as many places to play safe there as on most of my other courses, because neither Mr. Nicklaus nor Mr. Pascucci agreed with that philosophy.  Even the "safer" options often require players to negotiate a hazard.

I would love to go over the course on Monday and Tuesday with a couple of select players and see how much it helped them relative to the field.

[Brent Hutto]

Nigel,

I teaching-pro buddy explained once that the "tougher" courses when set up for tournaments tend to dictate most shots on any given day. Exceptions would be if a player drives it much, much shorter than the rest of the field or much, much longer. Or if there's significant wind it may change the obvious play from day to day. But most elite players are going to figure out the same low-risk line and shot selection for most shots when they are in a stroke-play tournament that will be decided by finishing up a single stroke better than anyone else in the field over 54 or 72 holes.

Most of the "strategy" or "tactics" or mental-game stuff a tournament player focuses on has to do with judging what his shots are going to do under a given set of condtions (lie, wind, pin position, how his swing is working at the moment) while treating the line and shot selection as pretty much a given. There are just not enough meaningful options in play once you lengthen, toughen, narrow, speed up and polish a course into "tournament" condition. It doesn't make sense to be inventing alternate ways of targeting your shots on the fly when the purpose of the exercise is the execute, execute, execute with as close to perfection as possible. One extra seriously bad shots can undo a lot of fractional shot gains from trying to find a better way to negociate the course than your competition.

[Wade Whitehead]

Tommy:

Awkward tee shots often utilize the line of charm.  The player wants to aim somewhere he knows he shouldn't.

To me twelve at Ballyhack is a fine example.  There is a prudent play to be made but seeing the green perched well left of the ideal line causes player after player to hit the tee shot left.  I've heard guys describe the look as awkward; what I think they really meant is that they took the lure, hook, line, and sinker.

WW

[Tommy Williamsen]

Wade, 12 at Ballyhack is a pretty good example.  I very seldom miss the ball to the right, even though the right side of the fairway is the preferred side.  I will miss it in the left rough which is a good place to make bogey.  I never feel quite comfortable on that tee.  Lately I have laid back so I can get a better look at the green, even though it is a much longer shot than trying to hit it down the hill, like Van prefers.

[Doug Siebert]

I like holes with awkward tees.  I think putting back tees off axis on a straightaway par 4 or 5 like Tommy's example for the 8th hole in his first post is a really good way of adding interest by making for a more difficult tee shot, without necessarily adding a ton of extra length.

[JWL]

Muirfield Village has 3 of them IMHO
2,5 and 18
All dogleg against the natural slope of the land.
All have water on the outside of the outside of the dogleg
Everyone has to make up their own minds whether they are awkward or not.
I have it on good report that Jack would not lay the course out like that today.   Muirhead routed the course originally.

[Bill_McBride]

I love tee shots to fairways protected by diagonal cross bunkers.  It's even better if the diagonal is at 45* so the short driver can play short of the cross bunkers and be forced to get up and down to make par.

I guess this is challenging rather than awkward but that's okay. 

[Jud_T]

Dave,

As a southpaw I actually don't mind the tee shot at 11 at Shoreacres.  I agree wholeheartedly about 13 though.

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