[Patrick_Mucci]

Low scores in the desert due to the lack of substantive contours and slopes in the greens ?

I know the TV cameras flatten the greens, but I don't recall seeing significant and sharp breaks.

Will increased speeds and the flattened greens result in lower scoring, which would seem to be counter-intuitive as increased speed is perceived as a defensive mechanism

[Brian Finn]

I have heard some say that golf's 'dirty little secret' is that top players prefer faster greens.  I believe the original quote can be attributed to Pete Dye.  I played it a long time ago, but recall TPC Scottsdale having pretty flat and perfectly true greens, so it seems to be open season for guys like Mickelson and Snedeker. 

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

The Tour's standard for golf course set-up includes not putting the hole anywhere on the green that there is more than a 2.25% slope, and at least three paces away from anything steeper than that.  So, unless the greens are 15 on the Stimpmeter, that is going to result in a lot of birdies.

The modern courses tend to have flatter greens (to accommodate those fast green speeds), wider fairways, and fewer trees in play, all of which are primary factors that help produce very low scoring.

[Jaeger Kovich]

The altitude has to help a little bit as well.

[Mark McKeever]

Pat,

As long as the greens are rolling true and the pins are in fairly flat spots, I think the scores will continue to be low.  As Tom says above, if you have them in areas where you dont have to give the hole away, you will see these guys draining putts all day long.

MM

[Mark Steffey]

johnny miller just said these are perhaps the easiest greens to putt on tour.  "if you can't make putts here, you should just stay home."

[Pat Burke]

johnny miller just said these are perhaps the easiest greens to putt on tour.  "if you can't make putts here, you should just stay home."

And yet another reason I avoided Phoenix!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Johnny Miller just stated words to the effect that if you can't putt these greens you should go home.

In light of what Tom Doak said, is golf on TV/PGA Tour transitioning from a competitive sporting event to an entertainment event and will the potentially difficult challenge presented by the golf course be converted to a sub par scoring fest ?

[Jeb Bearer]

Flat greens, soft conditions, wide fairways for the tour, high elevation, and no true 3-shot holes, so it plays almost like a par 68. That being said, you still have to hit good shots to beat everyone else; Phil has played better golf than anyone else in the field and he is winning. I think it's still a competitive sporting event, but the idea behind the course and setup is certainly different.

[Ben Sims]

Why are so many referring to the environmental conditions as a reason for low scores?  Scottsdale is what, 1500ft above sea level?  Hardly a big deal in adding length.  The temps are around 65-70 and the humidity at 40%.  It's good weather, but it isn't some anomaly that is causing low scores. 

No, this is an easy golf course, with true, flat greens and wide-ish fairways.  These guys can bomb it and then take dead aim at easy greens.  What's not to like?

[BHoover]

Johnny Miller just stated words to the effect that if you can't putt these greens you should go home.

In light of what Tom Doak said, is golf on TV/PGA Tour transitioning from a competitive sporting event to an entertainment event and will the potentially difficult challenge presented by the golf course be converted to a sub par scoring fest ?

I wonder if this might be a bit of an overstatement. Some Tour events tend to be birdie-fests, whereas other events tend to be more about avoiding mistakes and making pars. I don't think we should view any one event as indicative of how the Tour is trending.

I think that when you have dry air, a bit of altitude, no wind, relatively flat greens and wide fairways, the best players in golf are going to make a ton of birdies. There's nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't want to see it week-in and week-out, but it's fun to watch at times. Just as it's fun to watch players battle nerves and the course and/or the weather in the Opens.

[David_Tepper]

"In light of what Tom Doak said, is golf on TV/PGA Tour transitioning from a competitive sporting event to an entertainment event and will the potentially difficult challenge presented by the golf course be converted to a sub par scoring fest ?"

I would be reluctant to jump to any conclusions based on one or two weeks of PGA Tour play. The scores in the desert have been among the lowest on the Tour almost every year. I can remember when Johnny Miller used to post very low scores at Phoenix & Tucson in the 1970's.

[V. Kmetz]

It already is an entertainment...a vehicle to sell things; the exhibition, the competition is secondary.  Since a property owner put a fence around a field where people were playing ball, its been that way...but now the pace and glut is dizzying.  Too many people have their balls in it, to ever pretend its not the greatest thing you have ever seen.

Like the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL...the things followers, fans, care about...who wins the games, how they are played...are insignificant to the idea that the games go on, no matter what.  Betcha a buck, one of the first four questions the winning coach gets in a few hours is: Can you repeat/what will it take to repeat this year...and by Friday there won't be a talk radio/newspaper story about it.  That's the disposability I'm referencing in Tom Doak's solicitation post.

Quick memory quiz (don't post, but try and answer any three in under 3 minutes without internet)

1.  Name the top 3 finishers in the 2011 Masters?

2.  Which were the last three Super Bowl losing teams?

3.  Which was the Canadian team to last play in the Stanley Cup?

4.  Who did the Red Sox beat for the last of their World Series titles?

5.  Who won the 2010 BCS title game (college football)?

6.  When last did an NBA championship go seven games?

All questions from the last 6 years (most are from the last three). 

cheers

vk

[Ed Brzezowski]

"In light of what Tom Doak said, is golf on TV/PGA Tour transitioning from a competitive sporting event to an entertainment event and will the potentially difficult challenge presented by the golf course be converted to a sub par scoring fest ?"

I would be reluctant to jump to any conclusions based on one or two weeks of PGA Tour play. The scores in the desert have been among the lowest on the Tour almost every year. I can remember when Johnny Miller used to post very low scores at Phoenix & Tucson in the 1970's.

That's because Johnny shot a 63 at Oakmont and knows the fall  line of every course on  the planet.

[Kevin_D]

That's because Johnny shot a 63 at Oakmont and knows the fall  line of every course on  the planet.

And he seems to bring it up every chance he gets

[jeffwarne]

"In light of what Tom Doak said, is golf on TV/PGA Tour transitioning from a competitive sporting event to an entertainment event and will the potentially difficult challenge presented by the golf course be converted to a sub par scoring fest ?"

I would be reluctant to jump to any conclusions based on one or two weeks of PGA Tour play. The scores in the desert have been among the lowest on the Tour almost every year. I can remember when Johnny Miller used to post very low scores at Phoenix & Tucson in the 1970's.

True, it is the desert, where they've historically taken it deep.

Most importantly, take a look at 18, not that long ago a scary driving hole for pros.
Used to be driver was aggressive because some could reach right bunker, now driver is safe play because they eliminate water,and aim left of right bunker something the original architect could not have considered.
The 550 yard par 5's are drivers and often mid irons, turning "risk reward" par 5's into Less risk, more reward holes.

my usual soapbox, obviously Phil's just endorsing and/or lying about his new driver, because Mike Davis just told us equipment's been static for 10 years.
Perhaps he's been measuring drives on 17, where they now hit 3 woods into the middle of the green

[Nigel Islam]

It already is an entertainment...a vehicle to sell things; the exhibition, the competition is secondary.  Since a property owner put a fence around a field where people were playing ball, its been that way...but now the pace and glut is dizzying.  Too many people have their balls in it, to ever pretend its not the greatest thing you have ever seen.

Like the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL...the things followers, fans, care about...who wins the games, how they are played...are insignificant to the idea that the games go on, no matter what.  Betcha a buck, one of the first four questions the winning coach gets in a few hours is: Can you repeat/what will it take to repeat this year...and by Friday there won't be a talk radio/newspaper story about it.  That's the disposability I'm referencing in Tom Doak's solicitation post.

Quick memory quiz (don't post, but try and answer any three in under 3 minutes without internet)

1.  Name the top 3 finishers in the 2011 Masters?

2.  Which were the last three Super Bowl losing teams?

3.  Which was the Canadian team to last play in the Stanley Cup?

4.  Who did the Red Sox beat for the last of their World Series titles?

5.  Who won the 2010 BCS title game (college football)?

6.  When last did an NBA championship go seven games?

All questions from the last 6 years (most are from the last three). 

cheers

vk

You had to put a hockey question in there otherwise I would have gotten them all 

[V. Kmetz]

You're better than me, I had to look to put up four of the questions...

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

David & Brian,

I watched an inordinate number of putts yesterday and didn't see much in the way of sharp breaks.

I recall mentioning to VKmetz that I've never had a putt over 8'-10' at WFW that didn't have break, with some really breaking hard.

Are greens on their way to becoming pool tables ?

Faster and faster, flatter and flatter ?

Can you imagine the outrage if the green at Sitwell Park was replicated ?

Or even the 1st, 3rd, 6th, 11th and 12th at NGLA ?

The Walker Cup telecast should be interesting.

I just hope the hole locations are on a par with the hole locations in the qualifying round of the Singles Tournament

[Nigel Islam]

You're better than me, I had to look to put up four of the questions...

cheers

vk

I have not looked them up yet to see if I was actually right! Actually I'll be honest I can't remember who the Red Sox beat in their second  (recent) world series. The first was the Cardinals. Oh yeah I just remembered it was the Rockies! The Rockies were actually in a world series. Oh boy that proves your point, I had totally forgotten that! I promise I did not look it up. I'm guessing at the Stanley Cup one, but I seem to remember a riot in Vancouver recently.

[Neil White]

Pat,

I heard the commentators make reference to the amount of break from 10 foot and in - suggesting that at most other courses the amount was up to 4 inches whereas at Scottsdale it was no more than inside edge of the cup.

They were running true as well so as long as they're on line and paced well there isn't a great deal else that can go wrong.

Neil.

[Matthew Petersen]

TPC Scottsdale is basically just a pretty easy golf course. Even for the am, I don't think it's especially hard. It's pretty wide, the desert areas are all pretty well cleaned out, and the greens are flat and true. Sure, there's water in play in a few places, and that makes it trickier for amateurs, but for a good player, and especially a pro, it's a course where you're thinking about birdie on most tees.

I think the greens are the flattest (except 17) of any premier course in the valley.

Also, since the renovation some years back, I think the "Champions" course across the street is more difficult than the Stadium.

[Mike_Young]

THERE IS ONE OTHER THING that helps them.
They are good.  They don't play barefooted with a leather carry bag and balata balls with hickory shafts to enjoy the day.  About 75 people in the world make the cut and we get to watch the top four or five of those guys who happen to be playing the best out of the best that week.  It's not normal golf.  On an easier course some of them will shoot lights out everyday.   

[Matthew Petersen]

They'll be back in the desert in a couple weeks, and (though not a stroke play event) no one will be going low like they do in Scottsdale.

You'll still see some great golf, even some spectacular golf, because the match play format means the guys will try go for broke shots that they never would in a medal event, but you'll also see a course with a lot more desert in play, where a ball in the desert is far less likely to be found in a spot where any kind of recovery is possible, and where the greens are wild and tough to make long putts on.

I think it comes down to (a) most of the "desert" courses the Tour plays just aren't very hard and (b) the weather is generally very good. There have been some years where the wind kicks up in Scottsdale and then the scores aren't nearly as low (though it's not usually like the leaders are struggling to break par). This week it was calm and 70 pretty much all four days.

[V. Kmetz]

Pat and all.

I gotta run to class, but I want to make a quickie remark vis a vis Winged Foot and a great deal of vintage Westchester county courses:

At WF (W or E) there isn't a straight putt outside of 4 feet...even that's pushing it.  There may be putts that (net-net) can be played straight at the hole, but they won't roll straight to get there.  Also (and this is where winged Foot is most unique) many times on certain holes and locations, the side you choose is dependent on the aggressiveness (or lack thereof ) of your speed.  I know that sounds ridiculous, but its true, owing to the fact there are so many subtle contours--funneling, edges of brows-- that a ball might encounter to the hole on a putt over 15 feet. 

When they get those suckers near 12 on the Stimp, its a fright.

perhaps more later

cheers

vk

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