I think I could make MacKenzie, Tillinghast and others better architects

[Patrick_Mucci]

by pairing them with a great business manager and administrator.

I was thinking about some of these fellows, and how they died broke or in dire straits and how much more productive they could have been had they had a great business manager / administrator.

Think of the time that could have been freed up, how better organized, financially and artistically, how they could have promoted themselves better, etc., etc..

Now, look at the modern architects, the one's currently practicing.

Could they benefit, financially, numerically and artistically by having a great business agent / administrator ?

[Mike Sweeney]

Could they benefit, financially, numerically and artistically by having a great business agent / administrator ?

I'd rather have a cousin that I could trust that speaks Mandarin and Pashto.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Could they benefit, financially, numerically and artistically by having a great business agent / administrator ?

I'd rather have a cousin that I could trust that speaks Mandarin and Pashto.

Mike,

I thought you did have a cousin that speaks Mandarin and Pashto, but, I thought you said you couldn't trust him.

[Chip Gaskins]

think about the relationship between Keiser with Coore/Crenshaw and Doak.  not that any of those architects aren't good business men (hey Doak got into MIT), but Keiser certainly has added a valuable component into the mix.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thomas Kinkade did not die broke but he at least did us the courtesy to die young. This notion that financial security makes one more creative is pure folly.

[Peter Pallotta]

John's right - though personally I've been as uncreative when I had money as when I didn't.

Pat - we touched on this on another thread, but I think you're not giving enough credit to the networks/supports that the early American greats did have - in some cases, financiers who were also friends; in other cases, former/current architects and top flight amateurs who were also writing for the main golf magazine(s) (and therein promoting the work of their friends); and in still other cases, the time and set of contacts/friends that allowed for a great course to be designed and to develop over years and years, with a lot of outside advice. It seems to me that today's great architects differ from their predecessors in only one regard -- they aren't given (and/or cannot afford) the time.

PS - men die broke for lots of reasons, of course; too much apple-jack is one of them.

Peter

[Steve Burrows]

This notion that financial security makes one more creative is pure folly.

I agree with John (and with PPalotta).  Would John Keats have written as furiously and as beautifully in his few short years just because he had a manager or an agent?  In his case, the star that burned twice as bright certainly burned half as long.  Or consider the careers of Poe, or Melville, or Van Gogh, for example.  Sometimes the pains of life are what give these artists their creative fuel.  

But the real problem with Pat's questions is that they are, in essence, counterfactuals.  It is pure speculation (which is curious coming from Pat, who demands evidence), and truly unanswerable.  Further, the notion is predicated on using modern business practices to respond to historical conditions.  You might as well ask if the Confederacy would have fared better during the Civil War if they had automatic weapons.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thomas Kinkade did not die broke but he at least did us the courtesy to die young. This notion that financial security makes one more creative is pure folly.

JakaB

Pure folly is your take on the gist of the thread  

The gist of the thread was that the ODG's might have been more creative and more productive without having to wear so many hats, hats that caused them to devote less time to the creative and construction end of the business.

And, that being more efficient in their operation, they might have produced more courses.

The division of labor remains an important component in efficiency in any organization.

Their forte was designing, not administrating

[Ronald Montesano]

...of buildings?

[Scott Warren]

John Kavanaugh,

Tell Tom Simpson that.

Or if you're right, I shudder to think what he could have designed if he were broke...

One or the other.

[Philippe Binette]

a great business manager would probably have prevented them being who they were....

the would have accepted more projects... which would have led to weaker projects

the great business manager might have considered Mackenzine going to Australia a waste of time...

let people be what they want to be, whether they die broke or not...

I'd prefer die broke and have designed a Royal Melbourne... which is still there today, than die rich and have built crappy course and see my fortune spent stupidly by a spoiled grandchild

[Will Lozier]

You might as well ask if the Confederacy would have fared better during the Civil War if they had automatic weapons.

Or, if Jefferson Davis had Pat Mucci in his cabinet!

[Will Lozier]

Without being totally cynical, to play Pat's role...

Pat,

1) How many of these men did you know personally, those that died broke?

2) How many of their personal financial records have you seen?

3) Do you know for a fact what their business models were?  

4) Given that MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Ross, Flynn, MacDonald, Raynor, etc. produced more great courses than most modern architects - with all due respect to Doak, C&C, Dye, etc. - it is hard to find fault in their business models and, thus, resumes.  Obviously, our modern favorites will produce more great courses still but...it is not a given that their legacy will be greater that the Golden Age Designers, better business model or not.

[Garland Bayley]

Or maybe just have them live at at time where the great depression wouldn't interrupt their work.

[Will Lozier]

Or maybe just have them live at at time where the great depression wouldn't interrupt their work.

Maybe the best point made here.  However, if we send Pat back to late summer of 1929, he can somehow prevent said economic catastrophe and save these poor guys from eminent failure to live up to their potential, architecturally, personally, and financially!  All we need to do is find a Delorean!

[Philippe Binette]

At least the depression and the war prevented people to throw money into golf courses and make a mess of them.

[Bruce Bearer]

Not being an architect my thoughts might be way off but I believe the biggest issue golf course architects face is that most golfers have no idea what a golf course architect really does.   And most golfers certainly don't know the difference between a "good" architect and a "great" architect.  I would think this was the case back in the Golden Age.

How can the message be more effectively sent out to the golfing world?  How can the design "industry" educate more people about quality architecture and convince more green committees to seek expert advice before they start modifying their golf courses? 

[David Minogue]

Many talented people have died penniless, Oscar Wilde and Edgar Allen Poe were and still are heavyweights in the art of literature. The both of them died with very little but there body of work is what makes them great. The same can be said about the ODG, Im sure at the time they must have been treated like royalty in the business. I dont think when they were on their death bed they were worried about what assets they had or had not but they would have been proud of their accomplishments. I dont think they cared about business managers or money, it would have been the size of the footprint  that they left on the game. The legacy that they left would have been worth more than any sum of money!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Or maybe just have them live at at time where the great depression wouldn't interrupt their work.

Maybe the best point made here.  However, if we send Pat back to late summer of 1929, he can somehow prevent said economic catastrophe and save these poor guys from eminent failure to live up to their potential, architecturally, personally, and financially!  All we need to do is find a Delorean!

The above post is proof positive that the quality of the posts and those posting continues to deteriorate.

[William_G]

by pairing them with a great business manager and administrator.

I was thinking about some of these fellows, and how they died broke or in dire straits and how much more productive they could have been had they had a great business manager / administrator.

Think of the time that could have been freed up, how better organized, financially and artistically, how they could have promoted themselves better, etc., etc..

Now, look at the modern architects, the one's currently practicing.

Could they benefit, financially, numerically and artistically by having a great business agent / administrator ?

Many do have that advice/team.

But the best of this era are the passionate folks, not the one's listening to the business folks, and this I believe to be true of any era.

[Mark Pearce]

The above post is proof positive that the quality of the posts and those posting continues to deteriorate.

You must be very proud of your contribution to that trend.

[William_G]

The above post is proof positive that the quality of the posts and those posting continues to deteriorate.

You must be very proud of your contribution to that trend.

hahaha, winner!

[Garland Bayley]

Or maybe just have them live at at time where the great depression wouldn't interrupt their work.

Maybe the best point made here.  However, if we send Pat back to late summer of 1929, he can somehow prevent said economic catastrophe and save these poor guys from eminent failure to live up to their potential, architecturally, personally, and financially!  All we need to do is find a Delorean!

The above post is proof positive that the quality of the posts and those posting continues to deteriorate.

Come on Patrick. When you insult people by indicating the quality of their posts and themselves deteriorate over some hypothetical standard you imagine, you degrade the website with your disdain and your willingness to essentially name call.

Rise above it dude!

[Mark_F]

The gist of the thread was that the ODG's might have been more creative and more productive without having to wear so many hats, hats that caused them to devote less time to the creative and construction end of the business.

And, that being more efficient in their operation, they might have produced more courses.

The division of labor remains an important component in efficiency in any organization.

Patrick,

If you had the slightest artistic bone in your body, you would realise what utter nonsense those sentiments are. 

You can't turn on inspiration on a whim.

Stick with being a capitalistic expoliter, it's clearly what you are good at. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

The above post is proof positive that the quality of the posts and those posting continues to deteriorate.

You must be very proud of your contribution to that trend.

I try to do my part but realize that my efforts pale in comparison to yours.

Speaking of contributions, I noticed that neither you, Will, GJ and William Grieve haven't contributed a penny toward helping to support this site.

I guess talk is really cheap where you're concerned.