Visitor Tees

[Paul Dolton]

This may have been mentioned before but when paying a green fee and then being told you must play from the middle tees real ticks me off. I understand if nobody is allowed off the backs but some clubs say members can but no to visitors regardless of handicap.

[Bill_McBride]

This may have been mentioned before but when paying a green fee and then being told you must play from the middle tees real ticks me off. I understand if nobody is allowed off the backs but some clubs say members can but no to visitors regardless of handicap.

Try not to get too agitated when you play the Old Course.  Shortish yellow tees every day. 

[Niall C]

Bill

That is true but then its the same for everyone. A lot of member clubs here in the UK now let you play where you want but that didn't use to be the case and it didn't matter who you were, everyone played off the same tee.

Niall

[jeffwarne]

This may have been mentioned before but when paying a green fee and then being told you must play from the middle tees real ticks me off. I understand if nobody is allowed off the backs but some clubs say members can but no to visitors regardless of handicap.

perhaps they have memberships available to solve your problem

[David_Elvins]

Bill

That is true but then its the same for everyone. A lot of member clubs here in the UK now let you play where you want but that didn't use to be the case and it didn't matter who you were, everyone played off the same tee.

Niall

I suspect that clubs are clueing into the fact that if their visitor revenue is higher than their membership fee revenue, then the business model does not support visitors being treated as second class citizens.  

[Sean_A]

Bill

That is true but then its the same for everyone. A lot of member clubs here in the UK now let you play where you want but that didn't use to be the case and it didn't matter who you were, everyone played off the same tee.

Niall

I suspect that clubs are clueing into the fact that if their visitor revenue is higher than their membership fee revenue, then the business model does not support visitors being treated as second class citizens.  

That is very, very few clubs and most of these visitors are lucky to play so they shouldn't bitch.  That said, more and more clubs which don't have visitor fees anywhere near the value of member dues are allowing medal tees to be used, but as of yet it isn't a strong culture.  To be fair, most visitors down't have enough to step back even one fairly short courses. 

I think the only time I wished for longer tees was on the front 9 at TOC the last time I was there.  It would have been nice to mix and match tees to better suite the wind.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Paul certainly at my club RCP back tees would be too difficult and extremely slow for the majority of players in the summer. It is also difficult to mix regular yellow tee players with back tee players due to the increased walks and I estimate 9-10 mins of time.

[Paul Dolton]

Paul certainly at my club RCP back tees would be too difficult and extremely slow for the majority of players in the summer. It is also difficult to mix regular yellow tee players with back tee players due to the increased walks and I estimate 9-10 mins of time.
[/

Mark you are certainly fortunate to be a member at RCP. Last time i played there was in the south east links tournament and we were lucky enough to play off the new tees on the sea wall.
I guess what i really mean is not being able to play off the same tees as the members tee of the day. I remember at Nefyn once a member walking across several holes to tell us to play off the forward tees, although we were comfortale gaining on his group.
To be honest i'm not sure what the rule is at my own club, Frilford, but there are a couple of holes which change dramatically when playing from yellow instead of white.
Has RCP been protecting any parts of the course for the amateur ?       quote]

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

Surely you wished for tees further back at Silloth when they made you play from the ladies' tees?

[Carl Johnson]

As a USA recreational golfer who's played, probably, 35 courses in Scotland and Ireland, I have these observations:

(1) If, for whatever reason, the length of the hole is important when you play it, then by all means do your due diligence.  If the holes on the course from the tees you are permitted to play are not long enough for you, then don't play that course.  There are plenty of other courses with holes of varying lengths that could satisfy you.

(2) In my experience, the difference in yardage between visitor tees and member tees is inconsequential.  As for the championship or medal tees, that's another matter.  Personal story.  One of our group visiting Royal County Down was a 1 handicapper and a very experienced amateur tournament golfer.  He asked to, and was permitted to, play from RCD's Championship tees.  Several days earlier he had played Royal Portrush from member tees (or the like) and finished one over.  At RCD, from the Championship tees he shot something in the low 90s . . . so, lesson learned.

(3) A reverse experience.  The only time I've ever played Carnoustie we were told that on that day we must play from the back tees - not the "way back" championship tees used for the Open - but the regular backs.  Wow!  It was a very long course.

[David_Elvins]

(1) If it is important, for whatever reason, that the length of the hole is important when you play it, then by all means do your due diligence.  If the holes on the course from the tees you are permitted to play are not long enough for you, then don't play that course.  There are plenty of other courses with holes of varying lengths that could satisfy you.

But from a club/course point of view, I think some of them are realising that they can't afford to have players go elsewhere because outside play is such a big part of their revenue stream. 

[Paul Jones]

This may have been mentioned before but when paying a green fee and then being told you must play from the middle tees real ticks me off. I understand if nobody is allowed off the backs but some clubs say members can but no to visitors regardless of handicap.

Is this a semi-private club or you an unaccompanied guest of a member?  I have not heard of this practice, the only rules I have ever seen is when some clubs have 7400+ yards and they require you to have a very low handicap to be approved to play those tees.

[Carl Johnson]

(1) If it is important, for whatever reason, that the length of the hole is important when you play it, then by all means do your due diligence.  If the holes on the course from the tees you are permitted to play are not long enough for you, then don't play that course.  There are plenty of other courses with holes of varying lengths that could satisfy you.

But from a club/course point of view, I think some of them are realising that they can't afford to have players go elsewhere because outside play is such a big part of their revenue stream.  

Correct, without a doubt, but that would be the club's business decision.  And, on the other side, a golfer is free to inform a club that he has chosen not to ask to play there because he is not permitted to play from a certain set of tees.

[Niall C]

Bill

That is true but then its the same for everyone. A lot of member clubs here in the UK now let you play where you want but that didn't use to be the case and it didn't matter who you were, everyone played off the same tee.

Niall

I suspect that clubs are clueing into the fact that if their visitor revenue is higher than their membership fee revenue, then the business model does not support visitors being treated as second class citizens.  

Actually its for agronomy reasons. Back tees were generally treated like your mum's best china and only used for special occasions. As a consequence, they went soft and the STRI and similar starting adivising clubs to use those tees more frequently. Furthermore it spreads wear and tear on the other tees.

I can only assume your comments relate to elsewhere than the UK as most members clubs here in Scotland at any rate don't really have a business model, they have instead a general idea about paying the bills. I've played an awful lot of courses here in Scotland as a visitor and can only think of a few occasions when I wasn't welcomed warmly and not one occasion where I wasn't playing the same course as the members.

Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

Paul - at the moment no, I assume once the growth starts the back portion of the par 3 tees will be roped off. A couple of hollows may need protecting after the Hewitt as they get a few gathering divot areas. You playing?

[Paul Dolton]

Paul - at the moment no, I assume once the growth starts the back portion of the par 3 tees will be roped off. A couple of hollows may need protecting after the Hewitt as they get a few gathering divot areas. You playing?

                                                                                                                                                                                       


Mark - I wish i was playing but not of that standard. I did read an R and A(?) report when i was last there. Mentioned using mats in winter. Was this anything to do with The Amateur?

[Paul Gray]

I'm very much in agreement with you Paul.

I have no objection to clubs keeping medal tees for medal play but to distinguish between members and visitors has always struck me as an archaic pursuit no different to separate car parks and separate changing rooms.

I don't buy my golf by the yard and simply ask that I be allowed to play the same course as the members play. In turn, I would object to visitors being treated differently at my club.

I do however reject to the modern theme of placing daily and medal tees ridiculous distances apart. I appreciate such action is taken so as to give people greater options, but why not simply keep daily tees as close as possible to medal tees and offer forward tees (call them vets tees, casual tees or whatever you like) and thus afford everyone the chance to play the course at almost full length without compromising the special character of the tees reserved for competitive play. I stand to be corrected but, based upon the then very limited use of medal tees, a difference of about eight yards per tee should then be all that's needed, leaving courses just an inconsequential 144 yards shorter over 18 holes.

Going way off on a tangent I know but the current trend towards letting everyone pick and choose their own tees and those tees being considerable lengths apart has led, it seems to me, to a farcical situation whereby the so called daily tees have no become the ones in A1

[Paul Gray]

whoops.........

A1 condition whilst the medal tees get a daily pasting.

[David_Elvins]

Actually its for agronomy reasons. Back tees were generally treated like your mum's best china and only used for special occasions. As a consequence, they went soft and the STRI and similar starting adivising clubs to use those tees more frequently. Furthermore it spreads wear and tear on the other tees.

Niall,
I have no problem with clubs keeping players off the back tees, but I think some clubs have re-thought or are re-thinking the wisdom of making what is now a lucrative income stream play off tees 40-60 yards in front of the back tees on each holes. 

I notice that Sunningdale is one club that has not changed there policy yet - visitors are informed on their website that they will be required to play the 6000 yard tees on each course.  I was under the impression from following this website for 12 years that many big GB clubs had similar policies. 

[Sean_A]

I'm very much in agreement with you Paul.

I have no objection to clubs keeping medal tees for medal play but to distinguish between members and visitors has always struck me as an archaic pursuit no different to separate car parks and separate changing rooms.

I don't buy my golf by the yard and simply ask that I be allowed to play the same course as the members play. In turn, I would object to visitors being treated differently at my club.

I do however reject to the modern theme of placing daily and medal tees ridiculous distances apart. I appreciate such action is taken so as to give people greater options, but why not simply keep daily tees as close as possible to medal tees and offer forward tees (call them vets tees, casual tees or whatever you like) and thus afford everyone the chance to play the course at almost full length without compromising the special character of the tees reserved for competitive play. I stand to be corrected but, based upon the then very limited use of medal tees, a difference of about eight yards per tee should then be all that's needed, leaving courses just an inconsequential 144 yards shorter over 18 holes.

Going way off on a tangent I know but the current trend towards letting everyone pick and choose their own tees and those tees being considerable lengths apart has led, it seems to me, to a farcical situation whereby the so called daily tees have no become the ones in A1

Paul

If you object, don't pay the green fee.  I have absolutely no problem with clubs stipulating that visitors will play off the daily tees while members and their guests have the option of playing the medal tees.  I know at my club the vast majority of members don't use the medal tees unless they play in a medal.  Not even members are allowed to play the championship tees.  Indeed, some members will enter the one comp in the year where a handicap limit isn't in force just so they can play the very back tees.  I haven't tried it as I know the medal tees (6650) are really too tough anyway.  Hell, the daily tees at 6400 yards is plenty tough enough.  Shit, I think playing the ladies tees at 5700 would be a good test of golf if guys just said par was 69 (with an SS of 68) instead of 74 - thus reducing all but one of the would be VERY short par 5s to 4s.  I never hear folks complain the course is too easy no matter which tees are used. 

Ciao 

[Paul Gray]

Sean,

You're absolutely right in so much as I don't have to pay to play anywhere I don't want to. 

My point however was a broader one concerning teeing policies as a whole, be it for visitors or members. I favour a policy whereby everyone plays from yellow tees in normal play. I simply prefer those yellow tees to be as near as possible to the whites, as was, very broadly speaking, the tradition. I learnt to play the game (those that have the misfortune of playing the game with me might dispute that statement) at such a course and the figures you quote suggest your course is of a similar ilk, thus ensuring the medal tees don't take an unnecessary pounding as the course plays as it was designed to from the yellow tees as well as the whites.

The point you made regarding the ladies tees illustrates further the desirability I referred to of providing forward mens' tees. Place them ten yards back from the ladies tees, call them anything you like which persuades shorter hitting male golfer to play them without feeling emasculated and, hey presto, you have options for all without effecting competition tees.

[Mark Chaplin]

Paul - Mats are mentioned twice in the report, once about grow throw mats to strengthen some pathways. The other was an experiment for a season on using a turf mat in one hollow on one fairway during the winter. We don't own winter tee mats!!

[Mike Wagner]

It's interesting to me that no one has mentioned the underlying problem of why they eliminate the choice of tees - slow play.  The rules should really be based on a time per hole....then kicking you off (without refund) if you don't keep up.

[Paul Gray]

Mike,

If it were down to me I'd attach a bomb to each and every golfer on the first tee and set it to go off after three and a half hours. Get round in time and have it switched off in the pro shop after your round!

But seriously, I think we often confuse slow play with inconsiderate, head in the clouds play. I have no objection to a fourball of novices taking four and a half hours to get round so long as they shift out of my way AS SOON AS my group catches them up.

[Niall C]

Actually its for agronomy reasons. Back tees were generally treated like your mum's best china and only used for special occasions. As a consequence, they went soft and the STRI and similar starting adivising clubs to use those tees more frequently. Furthermore it spreads wear and tear on the other tees.

Niall,
I have no problem with clubs keeping players off the back tees, but I think some clubs have re-thought or are re-thinking the wisdom of making what is now a lucrative income stream play off tees 40-60 yards in front of the back tees on each holes. 

I notice that Sunningdale is one club that has not changed there policy yet - visitors are informed on their website that they will be required to play the 6000 yard tees on each course.  I was under the impression from following this website for 12 years that many big GB clubs had similar policies. 

David

We're both generalising and in doing so you are judging the UK by what goes on at Sunningdale while I'm referring to my experience throughout Scotland and the North of England. Not sure which represents more the norm in the UK.

Perhaps I've been oblivious to it in the past but I also am not aware of going anywhere as a visitor and being prevented from playing tees the members were allowed to play (ignoring comps). Any restrictions have generally been for agronomy reasons and as far as the greenkeeper is concerned visitor and member are equally capable of causing wear and tear.

Indeed now I think about it how many courses save their "medal" tees and best pin positions for the Open comp which usually comprises mainly visitors. In the last couple of courses I've been a member of its been a gripe of the members.

Niall