3:50 to play 11 holes?

[Neal_Meagher]

While I appreciate that this is a web site and discussion board dedicated to golf architecture and its history, I simply cannot get the reasons why the best players in the world continue to portray such a bad example for the rest of us.  Specifically, I just watched bits and pieces (because that's all I had patience for) of the delayed final round of the Andy Williams Glen Campbell good time hour Shearson Lehman Brothers Farmers Insurance Open from Torrey Pines.

The final group of Tiger, Billy Horschel and Casey Wittenberg teed off around 11:10 am PST and finished, mercifully, at 3:00 pm PST.  They had the bad misfortune of playing behind Erik Compton, Brad Fritsch and Steve Marino.  Tiger's group was waiting on every shot all day except for the tee shot on 17 I believe.  

Obviously, this has been going on for a long time but when is enough enough?  Is there anyway we can separate the duties of the USGA and the PGA Tour on this issue?  And is golf design itself to blame?  Now, it was a tough day to play with a cool and strong breeze off of the Pacific that played havoc with club selection and things like that.  But 3:50 for ELEVEN holes?  

Would it be too much for a petition to be circulated among the world's golfers to be sent to the various professional tours admonishing them for their lackadaisical administration of their slow-play rules?  Is there anything that can force the hand of the tours to do the only thing that will speed up the turtles out there and that is swift and certain enforcement of slow play with FINES.  I'll do it.  I'll gladly do it and I won't even think twice about it.  I'll wear the biggest P. Diddy stopwatch clock known to mankind.  This behavior from those to whom we all do look up to at one time or another, is, or should be, an embarrassment to themselves.  But it doesn't seem to be as the ritual marking, cleaning and re-aligning and re-marking on the putting greens drones on and on.  And this is just one example.

So, in part this is certainly a rant, but also a call to all of you to ask if there is anything architecturally at fault here.  Are contemporary courses, besides becoming too long, to blame or is it just the outrageous money these guys are now playing for??

[John Kavanaugh]

Neal,

What would be the motivation for the PGA to shorten their rounds by an hour and a half?  Right now they sell advertisements based on a longer round.  Follow the money.

On a similar note me and my golf buddies have been playing tennis this winter.  The main drawback with the sport for us is that it doesn't take long enough to fill our afternoons as well as golf.  It just seems like such a waste to make a big production out of a sport that takes an hour and a half to play.  We find ourselves forced into going to a bar and drinking all afternoon.  I'd rather still be out on the course.

[Carl Johnson]

Neal,

What would be the motivation for the PGA to shorten their rounds by an hour and a half?  Right now they sell advertisements based on a longer round.  Follow the money.

On a similar note me and my golf buddies have been playing tennis this winter.  The main drawback with the sport for us is that it doesn't take long enough to fill our afternoons as well as golf.  It just seems like such a waste to make a big production out of a sport that takes an hour and a half to play.  We find ourselves forced into going to a bar and drinking all afternoon.  I'd rather still be out on the course.

Neal, I agree somewhat with John's response, and the little tongue-in-cheek, too, on the second paragraph.  In the east time zone, the "show" finished right at 6:00, which was perfect timing to go on into the 6:00 news.  What did please me was the commentators' continued emphasis on how long it was taking and how silly it was - and these are commentators who I'm not normally all that impressed by.  Most of the time on TV golf you don't see the dwadling because the cameras switch to action -- here you only had one group (that is, one player), really, that most of us were interested in watching.  However, we all know this has been going on for years and the PGA Tour apparently has zero interest in doing anything about it.  To answer your last question, I see no architectural fault.  I simply see dwadling players.

[Scott Warren]

Neal,

I played yesterday with two mates on a 6600-yard golf course laid out over fairly steep terrain.

It was pouring with rain for much of the round (http://tinyurl.com/a3q56af) and blowing a steady 1.5 to 2-club wind.

We played without caddies (juggling umbrellas, towels and clubs) and were in a competition - so were putting everything out and playing to the rules.

We played 18 holes in about 3h30m, all shooting in the 70s.

That all being so, I don't think the pros have any excuse for their pace of play given they have caddies with them.

Granted, they are playing for their livelihood, but I agree the game is becoming torture to watch at the professional level, to the point I only watch the four majors now.

The players have shown they won't speed up without being forced to, so it's time for all professional tours to start wielding a big stick.

To the architectural question - if round times on tour are going up on courses that have been played for many years, I don't think you can blame the architecture.

[jeffwarne]

That all being so, I don't think the pros have any excuse for their pace of play given they have caddies with them.

That is their excuse.
Without caddies, who would the players have mind numbing consultations over every shot with

[Pete_Pittock]

Neal,

What would be the motivation for the PGA to shorten their rounds by an hour and a half?  Right now they sell advertisements based on a longer round.  Follow the money.

On a similar note me and my golf buddies have been playing tennis this winter.  The main drawback with the sport for us is that it doesn't take long enough to fill our afternoons as well as golf.  It just seems like such a waste to make a big production out of a sport that takes an hour and a half to play.  We find ourselves forced into going to a bar and drinking all afternoon.  I'd rather still be out on the course.

Neal, I agree somewhat with John's response, and the little tongue-in-cheek, too, on the second paragraph.  In the east time zone, the "show" finished right at 6:00, which was perfect timing to go on into the 6:00 news.  What did please me was the commentators' continued emphasis on how long it was taking and how silly it was - and these are commentators who I'm not normally all that impressed by.  Most of the time on TV golf you don't see the dwadling because the cameras switch to action -- here you only had one group (that is, one player), really, that most of us were interested in watching.  However, we all know this has been going on for years and the PGA Tour apparently has zero interest in doing anything about it.  To answer your last question, I see no architectural fault.  I simply see dwadling players.

Unfortunately, CBS was geared to a 5:30 finish. The Marino/Compton/? group should have been put on the clock, and some players fined. The  18th hole was clearly open while they were still putting on 17. 

[Ben Sims]

Neal,

Been awhile!  Last I saw you I was testing the limits of my wife's new Teutonic driving machine trying to stay within sight of you in South San Francisco.  

I think you're right to be upset. I think all of us are. But public outcry over the state of big time sports is at an all time high.  What with concussions in football, lockouts in hockey and basketball, horse safety in racing, safety/boredom in auto racing; I'm starting to see a trend.  What all of these issues gin up is attention.  They gin up clicks on websites and eyeballs on TV screens.  There's no bad publicity anymore.  Ask Tiger.  

What I'm trying to say is this; I'm over the hubbub caused by the ridiculousness of the TOUR. It is what it is.  No amount of public outcry is going to change the equipment, the insane lengths of the round, or the absolutely out of control maintenance practices being forced upon golf courses like Nicki Minaj on Idol.  The TOUR has become farce of its once great self.  It's all about the Benjamin's baby.  

[Pete_Pittock]

There were 29 groups on the course, usually they have 24-26 groups and even then it is still slow.

[John Kavanaugh]

This weekend we may have buried the last great athlete and gentleman we will ever see in Stan Musial. The following euolgy by Bob Costas reminds of of what we are missing today.

http://t.co/8xt2Tznb

[Matthew Petersen]

So, in part this is certainly a rant, but also a call to all of you to ask if there is anything architecturally at fault here.  Are contemporary courses, besides becoming too long, to blame or is it just the outrageous money these guys are now playing for??

Don't see any connection to the architecture here. Torrey is certainly a very long golf course from the tips, but that's not an issue for these guys who are all well under par. As you noted, Tiger's group was waiting on nearly every shot, so there's no argument that this or any other course on tour simple takes a long time to play.

The answer is simple. These guys are playing for huge sums of money and it's been drilled into them for years to be incredibly deliberate over every shot. And over the years the problem begets itself. Sure, most of these guys would play just as well playing faster, but if round are going to be this slow anyway, why try to be quick.

John made the point well, the PGA Tour can change this if they want, very easily, but they have no financial incentive to do so.

[V. Kmetz]

First, let me say I agree with nearly every critique or commercial explanation for the general problem of SLOW PLAY as manifested and poorly led by the Tour and the governing bodies.  Today, and this particular week however, I have some opinions about this particularly gross instance of delay:

1.  Disclaimer...even if this improved by 30 minutes (3:20 for 11 holes) would it be so good?

2.  As mentioned by the telecast repeatedly, the nature of the re-start was a shotgun cluster***, in the crucial group(s)...two threesomes were to start on #8, a par 3...while the Watney, Teater, Walker group had putts remaining on the green, and then off to a Par 5.

3.  The sole bandit today was the Marino, Compton and Fritsch group...look at their scorecards for the Back 9...there were only two holes on that side (the Par 5s, 13 & 18) where a bogey was not made in the group...and on three of the holes, two players made bogey or worse.

4.  Now much as I want to bash guys for their terrible pace, no matter what, I also acknowledge that Fritsch and Compton, and to a lesser extent Marino, were in rarefied air...Fritsch and Compton were in position to triple their career earnings today...it stood to be a career stabilizing 11 holes of play...and what did they get?  A Monday finish...which was mere procession for Woods...with Woods' advance gallery positioning on their hole... with guys all over the course, not in the clubhouse, threatening their lifetime cheese...on a day that by all accounts (wind and cold) made a testing track even worse...the tension between "grind" (a great result could make their year) and "do it quick" must have been tremendous. 

5. By birdieing 17 and 18, Fritsch changed his outcome by $85,000, or about 1/3rd of what he's earned his entire anonymous career on Nationwide/Web.com career since 2001. Compton's only been slightly more successful in the same stint of also-ran career.

I tell you that tonight, there is happiness in the Fritsch and Compton entourages (probably a girlfriend and some DVDs) and I'm not that peeved at them for holding up the show...what's it to me anyway? I was at home and happy to have some Monday golf on, after work.

cheers

vk

[David Kelly]

I tell you that tonight, there is happiness in the Fritsch and Compton entourages (probably a girlfriend and some DVDs) and I'm not that peeved at them for holding up the show...what's it to me anyway? I was at home and happy to have some Monday golf on, after work.

What is it to us? Our time. 

Unless I know them or they are a particular favorite of mine what is it to me that Fritsch and Compton cashed bigger checks than usual?  They just beat out other golfers who I'm sure could have used the money as well.

If you asked me whether I would rather watch a round of PGA golf in 4.5 hours or have Fritsch or Compton win $85K more and have it take 5 hours I would opt for the former every time.

[V. Kmetz]

DK,

I wasn't condoning their pace or the experience, just trying to understand/explain why I think it was SO terrible today. There were a lot of unique factors that contributed to it that sucked in those particular guys, imo.

the only reason I added the stuff about their "entourage" and their happiness is to lend perspective is that our extra half-hour or 45 minutes is over and done with within a day of posting...and I can give some measure of understanding to balance my own unhappiness.

I wasn't harmed substantially; but I can't speak for everyone.

cheers

vk

[David Kelly]

Unfortunately CBS and other networks don't use the extra time that results from slow play to show more golf.  If they did that the telecast would flow better and we wouldn't notice the slow play as much.  Instead we get treated to endless shots of Woods standing in the fairway with his arms folded and golfers sitting on their golf bags shooting the breeze with their caddies.  And commercials, many many commercials.

BTW, A person saying he was Compton's caddie went on Shackelford's website and said that his group was slow because of complicated  rulings on holes 17 and 18 but as others pointed out it was apparent many holes earlier that they were more than a hole behind.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/1/28/farmers-final-round-pace-of-play.html#comments

[Jason Connor]

I'm guessing that most of US take 5 hours to do work that we could easily do in 3.5 hours if we put our mind to it.

They're just working joes like us.

[Martin Toal]

After seeing Casey Wittenberg's protracted pre-shot routine, I have a new least favourite player to watch.

[Jason Thurman]

Just DVR it. You can watch all 3:50 in about 30 minutes.

Better yet, just check the leaderboard at the beginning of the telecast. You could've realized that the tournament was over within about 12 seconds and moved on to watching the latest episode of Duck Dynasty.

[Jason Topp]

There were 29 groups on the course, usually they have 24-26 groups and even then it is still slow.

While tour players are slow, this is the real culprit.  Any shotgun I have played in with that many groups pretty much has automatically meant a 6 hour round.  I suspect the fastest groups could theoretically play would be five hours because there would need to be 2-1/2 hours worth of tee times going off of each nine.  They had 87 players because a whole bunch of people made the cut on the number, they decided not to repair groups after 54 holes and therefore could not do the cut down to 70 that they normally do after the third round without making everyone stop and wait until play had finished.

What I cannot imagine, however, is how a 3-ball group could fall a hole behind at that pace. 

[Matthew Petersen]

I tell you that tonight, there is happiness in the Fritsch and Compton entourages (probably a girlfriend and some DVDs) and I'm not that peeved at them for holding up the show...what's it to me anyway? I was at home and happy to have some Monday golf on, after work.

What is it to us? Our time. 

Unless I know them or they are a particular favorite of mine what is it to me that Fritsch and Compton cashed bigger checks than usual?  They just beat out other golfers who I'm sure could have used the money as well.

If you asked me whether I would rather watch a round of PGA golf in 4.5 hours or have Fritsch or Compton win $85K more and have it take 5 hours I would opt for the former every time.

But the Tour isn't really for you. It's for the players. It is the players. that's why there's no real pressure to change.

Now, if people stop watching and companies top giving the tour fat checks to sponsor tournaments, then you bet it will change. But don't hold your breath on that.

[Evan Louden]

They just beat out other golfers who I'm sure could have used the money as well.

If you asked me whether I would rather watch a round of PGA golf in 4.5 hours or have Fritsch or Compton win $85K more and have it take 5 hours I would opt for the former every time.

I agree with this. Each player gets a piece of the overall revenue pie of the PGA. The bigger the pie, the more your slice will be worth. If the product (PGA telecasts), is more valuable because of better pace then each player's piece will be worth more. Maybe Fritsch and Compton would be playing for $100K instead of $85K if they pick up the pace... And you can replace Fritsch and Compton's name with any other journeyman pro.

And how great would it have been if Tiger's group had asked to play through?

[Neil White]

Just DVR it. You can watch all 3:50 in about 30 minutes.

Better yet, just check the leaderboard at the beginning of the telecast. You could've realized that the tournament was over within about 12 seconds and moved on to watching the latest episode of Duck Dynasty.

I'm with you Jason,

It is quite rare that I choose to stay up and endure the torture of the US broadcasters - being from the UK we are 'treated' to insight on Sky from summarisers that basically revolves around asking the same question to two different people in two different ways and unsurprisingly getting the same answer.  Sometimes. 

I wonder though if when picking who is to go on air whether they actually find out if they can string a sentence together before offering them the gig.  Add to that the fact that poor Oliver Wilson was on last night looking like he had dressed himself during a last minute shopping spree at Oxfam en route to the studio.

I digress.

The following mornings repeat is by far the best choice - minus numerous ad breaks and without - but not all - the mind numbing chit-chat.

[Gib_Papazian]

The only way to solve the abysmal pace of play on Tour is peer pressure. The assertion that slow play leads to lower scores is absolute nonsense. How players like Rickie Fowler tolerate dilatory sluggards like Kevin Na is beyond me; further, I would make the argument that being forced to endure five hour rounds on Tour ends up costing faster players vast amounts of money by taking them out of their natural rhythm.

NFL and NCAA coaches "freeze" kickers all the time under the theory that hitting the pause button when somebody is ready to pull the trigger greatly increases the chance of a miscue. Years ago, the locker room wrath of guys like Lanny Wadkins was enough to light a fire under the khakis of slugs, but the Tour is full of pussies now. No wonder we get donkey-punched in the Ryder Cup.

I can understand a case of the "Sergio's" because I fought them for several years - I think from a thyroid disorder, but could never be certain. My natural pace is to walk fast, talk fast and swing fast because my motor idles at 2500 revs. It literally drove me insane trying to pull the trigger between twitches, but at least I moved fast between shots.

You see some of these Pro's shuffling down the fairway like convicts on their way to the gallows. I suppose their argument is that by walking fast, they theoretically will have to wait longer to hit the next shot. That stated, if some of the big dicks like Tiger started to slap around the snails - and let some very public WTF's fly at the officials when the pace slows down - I guarantee the problem would get drastically better.

These guys average no more than 72 shots a round. We are not talking about a conga-line of frightened 24 handicappers getting their rectums rerouted at Pine Valley. The big boys hit it 300 yards and know exactly how far it is to the pin - not to mention having a wet nurse carrying their bats and wiping their asses.

The urban legend that Nicklaus somehow caused this mess is absolute horseshit. It is true his pre-shot routine was not exactly speedy and Jack was a bit overly-deliberate over his putts. However, I followed him enough times in his prime to state that compared to the current crop of cud-chewing bovines stalking 18" tap-ins from four angles, Nicklaus was a speed-burner.

[Nigel Islam]

Gib I think the credit Jack gets for slow play has to do with his intruduction of a yardage book and meticulous yardages. He likely wasn't the first to do this, but he was the best. I think the sprots psychologists have taken this concept to a new level though. "You must be 100% committed to the shot even though you have backed off 4 times from your opening tee shot already."

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

One factor that contributed to everyone playing slower than normal yesterday was mud balls.  Usually, the PGA tour plays lift, clean, and cheat when a course is somewhat waterlogged.  Torrey became a mud problem after they teed off for the 4th round--too late to address this issue.  Pat Perez, probably top 5 in fast pace of play, was forced to take a lot of time on 14 trying to figure out how to hit the shot with such a large clump of mud.  The ball ultimately travelled 25yards over the green like a flier when he was trying to play short and safe.  For a lot of players, they were hitting iron shots that were somewhat beyond the control that their golf swings could create.  This fear of mud balls probably caused quite a few errant drives because players were not thinking in the present.  Another reason why Torrey takes long to play is because there are walks of 100 yards to the back 13th tee, 85 yards to the back 15th tee, and 90 yards to the back 16th tee.  A round at Torrey from back tees involves walking at lease 8200 yards--I am pretty certain that it takes a few minutes to simply walk a 100 yards.  This is another byproduct of hot equipment. 

[Tim Johnson]

Some good points mentioned, a couple of things I noticed:
I saw some players not start their long chats with the caddies until it was their turn to hit. This could/should be ready when it is their time to go. I appreciate, during slow play, they need to step away from the moment and chat so not to get to riled up.
Also, it is the way golf is now, look at amatuers taking up the game, they go through long detailed preshot routines tought to them by the pros at golf town.

An aside, does anybody think Horschel has a crush on Tiger. He was all over Tiger on Monday, chatting him, laughing at every Tiger said,  his score would indicate that he was pretty happy to be hanging with Tiger, thought he was going to start washing Tiger's balls for him.