What's the basis for the exemption that

[Patrick_Mucci]

Merion gets for having not one, but several crossovers in the routing ?

Other courses were admonished and some villified for having a crossover

Name them?

ATLANTIC

[Ed Brzezowski]

I have had the great fortune to play the old girl over fifty times.  The crossovers while odd  they add a certain old world charm to the experience.
Also most local drivers give you a break while crossing. Many have  given us a thumbs up or actually said how lucky we were to play there. While most Philly drivers are mildly insane I have never had one try to pick me off on Ardmore Ave.  

Good Lord it's not like walking at the jersey shore

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Only a moron would contend that Ardmore Ave, a busy thoroughfare, is not only an integral part of the course, but not responsible for  any "disjointing"

And, like clockwork, hot on the heels of your how long is yours? how many times have you played X? is your dismissal of a contrary opinion by calling its proponent a moron.
[color=green
]
That's correct.
When someone makes an evaluative remark about a golf course, a remark that may depart from conventional wisdom, their familiarity with the course must be called into question.

Whose views have more credibility on Merion, TEPaul, who has played Merion 100+ times over an extended period of time, when he provides an evaluative comment, or someone who's maybe played it once or twice, or not at all ?

David's comment was out of touch with reality, probably a concession to his fondness for the course, but out of touch nonetheless.

If you're going to be a moron and claim that one doesn't need to see or play a course in order to provide insightful comment on the play of a course, that's your prerogative.  

If one makes an evaluative comment, especially one contrary to conventional wisdom, the person's familiarity with the feature/course has to be questioned, whether you like it or not.

Simple fact is that the insight and familiarity you're looking to determine isn't a simple case of "more rounds wins". Plenty of people pick up as much in one visit as others see in 10, while another might make 100 visits without ever getting it.

Possibly, but that's not he case here.
David's comment was deeply flawed, but somehow, you want to defend it and classify it as insightful, making you a moron as well.
The truth is you objected to my asking David how familiar he is with the course he's making comments about.
Why would you not want to know how familiar someone is with a feature/course where he's providing  a critical analysis ?

David Elvins is someone who knows an enormous amount about golf courses,
That's irrelevant.
The issue is, what does he know about MERION.
Based on his comment, it would appear, not much.  
Hence I asked him to quantify his experience at Merion

Since you, like a moron, sprung to defend him, absent any knowledge of his familiarity with Merion, I'll offer you this analogy, which hopefully, you'll be able to grasp.

If you were going to have brain surgery, which appears to be needed, would you select a surgeon who's done the operation hundreds of times, or a surgeon where you'll be their first or second operation ?    Take your time on this one as I know this is a difficult question for you.


understands their components and sees things that plenty of others miss.

All of which are immaterial to the issue at hand where he evidently didn't understand and didn't see the obvious, hence your strident defense of his powers of observation is as or misguided as his comments.

Had you bothered to analyze the substance and veracity of his analysis, rather than focusing on and objecting to my question, you wouldn't look like an uninformed moron on this issue.

If you explore his opinion here more constructively you might learn something

His opinion on the issue at hand, crossovers and crossing busy roadways, is so grossly inaccurate and misguided that only a moron would rise in an attempt to defend it


(though I appreciate that being open to learning means accepting you don't already know everything about everything...).
I'm certainly familiar enough with crossing the road at Merion to exercise a high degree of caution in that endeavor
And I'm certainly familiar with the internal crossovers, probably a hell of a lot more than you, so, take your own advice and shut up and try to learn something from people who have played the course  far more than a few times

As to the OP, I think it's understandable to forgive a failure of foresight in examples of Golden Age courses that were laid out over quiet lanes that later grew into busy thoroughfares.

So now you're telling us that Ardmore Avenue, in Ardmore, Pennsylvania was never a major thoroughfare in that town.
Tell us, what information and data did you call upon to make that statement.
Did you travel on Ardmore Ave 60 or 100 years ago ?

David's a big boy and doesn't need you to stick your nose in an issue that doesn't concern you, especially a question that was asked, directly, of him.


Much less forgiveable would be a modern architect applying the same routing, knowing that a busy, dangerous road needed to be crossed.
That's why many are forced to employ tunnels at courses like Galloway, Firestone and Wilshire

A road crossing only detracts from the round if you allow it to.

That's patently absurd, and evidence that predisposition and/or bias trumps reality.

Much the same as planes taking off and landing near a course, a busy motorway running close to a course and creating a roar, a railway running past/through a course, noise from an adjoining house/school/factory/sporting field...

I don't recall many golfers getting hit by airliners or locomotives in the course of their round.

As to noise, I do know that many object to the din created by the traffic on the LIE when they're playing Deepdale.

I've only visited Merion once (hung out for a while, didn't play), and the road crossings there were not an issue to someone who is familiar with Worplesdon, New Zealand, Royal Melbourne (many plays each, seeing I know that matters to you) and accepts those Golden Age road crossings for what they are.

So now it's not a matter of the absolute, but a matter of comparison ?
That's also absurd.

The fact is that Merion has several road crossings and several internal crossovers, routing issues which have served to denigrate/degrade other courses.  Hence, you can't denigrate/degrade those other courses and give Merion a pass.
Conversely, perhaps road crossings, even modern road crossings shouldn't be considered a negative when evaluating routings

It would seem to me that your issue is not with the roads as such, but with the traffic. Is that a fair statement?

My primary issue was with the internal crossovers.

That issue is exacerbated when you factor in the road crossings.

So the real question is:  does the individual and overall quality of the holes overcome what might be perceived as flaws in the routing ?  ?  ?

How else can you explain Merion?  ?  ?

[Joe Bausch]

Pat, would you prefer the routing at MEast go back to what it was years ago, making the front nine go as follows?

1, 2, 6, 7, 4, 5, 3, 8, 9.

This effectively eliminates two crossovers, coming at the expense of a decent walk from 3 green to 8 tee.

Then throw in two pedestrian tunnels to get from 1 to 2 and 12 to 13 and all's swell?   

[Ed Brzezowski]

Sounds like a shovel ready job Joe. Let me know when you start.

[Brad Klein]

Pat, maybe w/o the crossovers it would have been No. 1. So much for it getting a pass. Besides, they get extra points for shoe-horning the routing in at all.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, would you prefer the routing at MEast go back to what it was years ago, making the front nine go as follows?

1, 2, 6, 7, 4, 5, 3, 8, 9.

Joe,

We know one thing for sure, the rotation doesn't change the configuration and//or quality of the individual holes, so the question would seem to be one of flow or continuity in terms of order of play.

So, for the sake of the discussion let's ignore the front side.
Now what ?

This effectively eliminates two crossovers, coming at the expense of a decent walk from 3 green to 8 tee.

Not the end of the world


Then throw in two pedestrian tunnels to get from 1 to 2 and 12 to 13 and all's swell?   

You're forgetting about the back nine issues

[Joe Bausch]

Pat, would you prefer the routing at MEast go back to what it was years ago, making the front nine go as follows?

1, 2, 6, 7, 4, 5, 3, 8, 9.

Joe,

We know one thing for sure, the rotation doesn't change the configuration and//or quality of the individual holes, so the question would seem to be one of flow or continuity in terms of order of play.

So, for the sake of the discussion let's ignore the front side.
Now what ?

This effectively eliminates two crossovers, coming at the expense of a decent walk from 3 green to 8 tee.

Not the end of the world


Then throw in two pedestrian tunnels to get from 1 to 2 and 12 to 13 and all's swell?  

You're forgetting about the back nine issues

Hey, those two tunnels under Ardmore Ave could be knocked out quickly... but I'm not also digging one from 13 green under the clubhouse drive, 1 fw, the practice putting green, to the new back tee on 14.  It would be easier for me to dig a tunnel from my home to The Barn at Featherfield Farm so I could always bug Tom with Merion questions.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, maybe w/o the crossovers it would have been No. 1. So much for it getting a pass. Besides, they get extra points for shoe-horning the routing in at all.

Brad,

Merion is a great course, but you can't dismiss the flaws at Merion and decry similar flaws at other courses.

It's an inequitable double standard, and that's the focus of this thread.

All I hear is excuses for the flaws, when if was another course it would be getting ripped for the same features.

There's another theory that I'll broach when this thread progresses, one that may preempt the original in significance.

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

Why just focus on Merion? National doesn't just cross a road, you hit over one with poor visibility of and for traffic coming from the right.

Shinnecock crosses a road.

Cypress Point crosses a busy tourist route populated by drivers who much of the time aren't looking where they are going.

The two courses at Royal Melbourne require you to cross a road SIX TIMES while playing them.

How many times have you played Foulpointe?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Why just focus on Merion?

1.    Because that's what I chose for the subject of this thread
2.    Because it has a number of crossovers
3.    Because it also crosses a busy road
4.    Because it is such a highly rated golf course
5.    Because another thread I created dealt with bad routings and this is related

National doesn't just cross a road, you hit over one with poor visibility of and for traffic coming from the right.


That's why they created the berms.
GCGC also had roads cutting through the course, but, i think you're confused, roads cutting through the course isn't the focus of this thread, crossovers are.
The intervening roads are another design feature, which when combined with the crossovers, calls the routing into question, in the context that Merion gets a complete pass for crossovers, while other courses get criticized for them.

Shinnecock crosses a road.

Irrelevant to the primary focus of this thread.
So does Southampton

Cypress Point crosses a busy tourist route populated by drivers who much of the time aren't looking where they are going.
Irrelevant to the primary focus of this thread.

How did you get so confused and sidetracked ?

It's CROSSOVERS, road crossings are just the icing on the cake

The two courses at Royal Melbourne require you to cross a road SIX TIMES while playing them.

Perhaps you should start a thread on road crossings

How many times have you played Foulpointe?

None

Does it have as many crossovers as Merion ?

[David_Elvins]

Patrick,

Does it take more than 4 visits to notice that there is no significant fence screening the course from the bordering roads?  

The best golf course routings make you feel like you are on a walk through the natural surrounds.  If you are going for a walk in a suburban  environment, which Merion is part of, it is perfectly natural to have to cross a road.  

If you are playing a course that has a constructed secluded environment (eg Augusta?, Pine Valley?), then crossing a busy road would indeed be a jarring experience.  Any course that tries to model itself on Pine Valley or Augusta and has a busy road crossing (eg Galloway National?) can rightly be criticised.  

But Merion is not a constructed secluded environment, it is a suburban course that in many places has no or little separation from the surrounding neighborhood.  For example.

The course is separated from ardmore Ave by waist high wire fences:


There is no significant fence between Golf House Road and the 1st, 14th and 15th holes


The 7th green abuts a neighboring house with no effort to screen the house or yard.


The 11th green can be viewed clearly from benches in someone's back yard.  


Merion doesn't pretend it is not in a suburb and therefor, normal suburban activities such as crossing roads are not out of place.  

[Chris Kane]

Patrick, the Old Course at St Andrews has two internal crossovers. You rarely hear that being admonished as a major design flaw.

To answer your question, I think there are two reasons (in addition to what Dave Elvins has already contributed):
(1) the double standard that a 'design flaw' on an average course is considered 'quirky' on a great course.
(2) established classic courses tend to be given a 'free pass'; modern courses do not.

When are you going to tell us the answers?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Does it take more than 4 visits to notice that there is no significant fence screening the course from the bordering roads?  

What's that got to do with anything ?
There's no fence at Shinnecock or NGLA screening you from the bordering roads.
If you had fence screening the bordering roads you wouldn't be able to cross them.
In addition, I believe a few members live in section west of Golf House Rd.  If it was fenced, they couldn't walk from their homes to the course, and back again.

The best golf course routings make you feel like you are on a walk through the natural surrounds.

That's absurd.
Is that the feel that you get at TOC, that you're alone with nature ?
That the town/city is invisible to the naked eye.
Remind me again about the tee shot at # 17.
A course's routing is independent of the surrounding area.
It's the internal terrain that's the primary factor.

If you are going for a walk in a suburban  environment, which Merion is part of, it is perfectly natural to have to cross a road.  
When I played Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Somerset Hills, Fenway, Baltusrol, Ridgewood and Plainfield, but, I don't recall crossing any roads.

If you are playing a course that has a constructed secluded environment (eg Augusta?, Pine Valley?), then crossing a busy road would indeed be a jarring experience.  Any course that tries to model itself on Pine Valley or Augusta and has a busy road crossing (eg Galloway National?) can rightly be criticised.  

Like Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Monterey Pennisula and Spanish Bay ?
AND, Pine Valley ?  ?  ?

But Merion is not a constructed secluded environment, it is a suburban course that in many places has no or little separation from the surrounding neighborhood.  

So what ?
The same can be said of almost every suburban course, Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Fenway, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Plainfield, Essex County, Hollywood, GCGC, Piping Rock, The Creek, etc., etc..

For example.

The course is separated from ardmore Ave by waist high wire fences:

At the tee end.  Take a look at the green end


There is no significant fence between Golf House Road and the 1st, 14th and 15th holes

If there were, the members living in the section west of Golf House Rd couldn't walk back and forth to the club.


The 7th green abuts a neighboring house with no effort to screen the house or yard.

That's because the green requires a southern exposure to the sun.
Your photo is completely misleading because the entire right side of the 7th hole is planted with screening trees.


The 11th green can be viewed clearly from benches in someone's back yard.

Sure, in the dead of winter.  You'll notice that in all of your pictures, two things are absent, leaves and golfers.
That green also needs sunlight and a southern exposure.


Merion doesn't pretend it is not in a suburb and therefor, normal suburban activities such as crossing roads are not out of place.  

Of course it is, and when it's combined with awkward crossovers, it's a design flaw that other courses get demerits for.
Ardmore Ave is no suburban lane, it's a busy thoroughfare.
Anyone who thinks speeding traffic is going to slow down and stop for them and congratulate them on playing Merion isn't playing with a full deck and needs to make sure that his life insurance premiums are paid up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, the Old Course at St Andrews has two internal crossovers.
You rarely hear that being admonished as a major design flaw.

Chris,

Do you think that might be due to the fact that you only have 11 greens at TOC ?
And, are you talking about the original routing or the current reversed routing ?

To answer your question, I think there are two reasons (in addition to what Dave Elvins has already contributed):
(1) the double standard that a 'design flaw' on an average course is considered 'quirky' on a great course.

Why, is it not the same flaw ?
Is quirky no longer accepted as an architectural quality or characteristic ?

(2) established classic courses tend to be given a 'free pass'; modern courses do not.
Why ?  Why is there a double standard ?

When are you going to tell us the answers?

Actually, the thread is about to make a "U" turn and in order to pursue the original, critical question I had about routing.

[JESII]

Interested to participate in your redirect if I can offer anything...but in the meantime I think you're overstating the severity of the road crossings at Merion by alot. The 13th to 14th hole walk is long, but not the least bit troublesome.

#2 to #3 and #5 to #6 is constricted and will cause major problems in the US Open this summer but I prefer intimacy to isolation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Interested to participate in your redirect if I can offer anything...but in the meantime I think you're overstating the severity of the road crossings at Merion by alot. The 13th to 14th hole walk is long, but not the least bit troublesome.

Jim,

You know it's troublesome.
Would you make that walk with your head down, not paying attention to any activity as you saunter from # 13 green to # 14 tee ?

And, remember, you used to walk through the clubhouse to get from # 13 green to # 14 tee.

#2 to #3 and #5 to #6 is constricted and will cause major problems in the US Open this summer but I prefer intimacy to isolation.

Look, Flynn used crossovers, although not as pronounced at Shinnecock.

The issue isn't the crossovers per se, it's the issue of granting a pass to Merion for crossovers and criticizing other courses for their crossovers.
You can't have it both ways.
It's about equitable architectural evaluation.

[JESII]

You ask some real screwball questions.

Ardmore Ave is far from a major road.

I like the walk from 13 to 14 at Merion but maybe I'm biased, I am from Philly afterall...

2 - 3 and 5 - 6 are much less pleasant but the routing didn't present a crossover for some number of years so I don't know how you attribute that

[Patrick_Mucci]

You ask some real screwball questions.

Ardmore Ave is far from a major road.

I like the walk from 13 to 14 at Merion but maybe I'm biased, I am from Philly afterall...

I know.
but, you didn't answer my question about the walk from # 13 green to # 14 tee.
It may be a pleasant walk, but, it's not one absent danger.

2 - 3 and 5 - 6 are much less pleasant but the routing didn't present a crossover for some number of years so I don't know how you attribute that

Jim,

If you make an alteration to a golf course, doesn't that alteration have to be evaluated, even if in the rotation of play ?

[Matthew Petersen]

Pat, maybe w/o the crossovers it would have been No. 1. So much for it getting a pass. Besides, they get extra points for shoe-horning the routing in at all.

This is a pretty good question, and so far it's been ignored.

Where's the evidence that Merion is "getting a pass" for any of this? I've certainly seen it brought up numerous times (usually the crossover from 13 to 14, not the road crossings) with some defenders and some detractors.

As Brad says, maybe it's the case that Merion is being downgraded for these issues and were it not for them, it would actually be rated higher.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

Better than Pine Valley ?

I think you have a tough sell there.

One more page and I'll make a "U" turn.

[Matthew Petersen]

Matt,

Better than Pine Valley ?

I think you have a tough sell there.

One more page and I'll make a "U" turn.

That was Brad's no doubt tongue-in-cheek suggestion.

The latest GD ranking has it 6th. Golf Magazine and GolfWeek both have it 7th. So it could be higher without necessarily having to be better than Pine Valley.

But again, this is a topic I've seen brought up many times, so if Merion is getting a pass then at the very least the issue isn't ignored (goodness, is anything about Merion ever not discussed?).

If you think it ought to be rated lower on account of these issues, that's a potentially interesting argument, and I for one would be interested for you to make it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mathew,

As I said, this thread will make a "U" turn when it hits page 3

[David_Elvins]

When I played Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Somerset Hills, Fenway, Baltusrol, Ridgewood and Plainfield, but, I don't recall crossing any roads.

Perhaps if these courses crossed roads, they would be as highly regarded as Merion? 

Anyway, I am done, you asked a question, I have given you an answer twice, you can work the rest out yourself

[Patrick_Mucci]

When I played Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Somerset Hills, Fenway, Baltusrol, Ridgewood and Plainfield, but, I don't recall crossing any roads.

Perhaps if these courses crossed roads, they would be as highly regarded as Merion? 


How could they ?  They don't have the awkward crossovers that Merion has 

Anyway, I am done, you asked a question, I have given you an answer twice, you can work the rest out yourself

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