Putting Course - Second Question Now Posted for Comments/Input

[Tim Leahy]

A lighted putting course would be nice after sun set and provide an opportunity for kids to play.

[Mark Alexander]

We just did a feature in Golf Illustrated on the Himalayas - I did the pics, Jock Howard did the words (http://www.golfillustrated.co.uk/The-Journal/Edition-Five/The-Sampler).
I will stick up a page on my website showing the shots when I get home (I am currently sampling the delights of a Floridian winter).
As far as growing the game, an exciting, fun putting course like the Himalayas is invaluable. It addresses so many issues that are holding back the sport. For instance, it doesn’t take long to play 18 holes, it is fairly inexpensive to build and maintain and it gives beginners a sense of what lies ahead should they decide to take up the game in earnest.
Incidentally, did you know the Himalayas was initially ‘designed’ by Old Tom?

[Wade Schueneman]

Greg,

If it was truly well done I would probably pay $10 - $15 per round.

[Greg Tallman]

Thanks guys, plaease continue any comments you may have on the concept in general and what it would "be worth" to you while pondering the following question as well.

 Putting Course design

1. Massive continuous green with no real 18 hole set up (marker here/hole here concept)
2. Multiple green complexes with clearly deifined individual holes, water features, native areas... etc (mini course concept)
3. Mixture of both 9 & 9 or more likely 12 & 6 with one "himilayas style complex and several as noted in #2

[Peter Ferlicca]

Hello Greg,

I will answer here because my good friend is the pro at Indian Wells Golf Resort and they have a very nice 9 hole putting course.  When it first opened they had 7 holes built around a little creek, very scenic and then two holes up top at the start.  Originally they had it all mowed as one putting green, they would put little tee markers and hole numbers on where to putt too.  It was very cool because you could change up the teeing grounds and hole positions to make a very different putting course.  Recently they went to each hole has become individualized, with rough around each hole.  This made every hole play the same every time, and it took out the big breaks that you could have played before.  Now every time we play the putting course it is the exact same hole every time.  To say it lost its luster is an understatement, I don't know who was in charge of making that decision but I feel that the putting course is not fun anymore. 

[Wade Schueneman]

Probably option #1 - a very large green that would accomodate several different 18 hole setups. 

[Wade Schueneman]

I guess all Bandon will need after this is a mini course (like at Turnberry). 

[Michael Essig]

Thanks guys, plaease continue any comments you may have on the concept in general and what it would "be worth" to you while pondering the following question as well.

 Putting Course design

1. Massive continuous green with no real 18 hole set up (marker here/hole here concept)
2. Multiple green complexes with clearly deifined individual holes, water features, native areas... etc (mini course concept)
3. Mixture of both 9 & 9 or more likely 12 & 6 with one "himilayas style complex and several as noted in #2

#1. And to answer your opening post, I think it should be free.  To put my answer in some context, I will be making my 6th trip to Bandon in a few months, so I obviously love the place..  When I am there, I use the massive putting green adjacent to the practice range a lot.  I spend at least one hour before my first round or upon my arrival day on it getting used to the suface.  However, I have spent that hour the past two times playing putting and chipping games with my playing partner - my son.  If there was a putting course conditioned the same as the course, I would just as soon let the course choose the game instead of me making it up on the current practice green.

Also, remember that Bandon has a very, very captive audience.  There is not much to do outside or inside the resort except golf.  There is no spa or any other luxury; it is all about golf and that is why it is so great and different.

In contrast to Pinehurst, where my wife went shopping and occupied herself, she was pretty bored when she accompanied me to Bandon 10 years ago, and I don't think she would ever come with me again.

So, if you are in a place like Cabo, where sun and sand are THE reasons you go to that destination, I don't know that I would ever set foot on a putting course.  When I am in sunnier climes with family - Scottsdale, Hawaii or Palm Springs - I never linger at the golf course; I play my round and get back to the family.  At Bandon, I don't think that will ever be a concern. 

I have no doubt MK knows exactly the profile of the Bandon clientele, and a putting course, just like Bandon Preserve, is something to occupy the time for those of us only capable of 18 holes of walking per day.

Cheers.

[Tom_Doak]

Greg,

If it was truly well done I would probably pay $10 - $15 per round.

The funniest thing I ever heard about the Himalayas green we did at High Pointe was from Rick Smith, the director of golf (and part-time architect) at Treetops, when he first saw it.  He told the owners that instead of charging a flat fee, they should just charge "ten percent of the action".

Of course, the owners were there looking at it to discuss abandoning part of it.  To them it was just an extra expense.

[Jud_T]

How about a putting course on the strip in Vegas!  Full bar and more action than you could shake a stick at.  Just think of all the ringers milling about waiting for a game...The prop betting possibilities are endless...

[Michael George]

Jud - that would be an awesome idea.  Perfect break from the tables that doesn't require you to lug your clubs to and from Vegas. 

[Tom_Doak]

How about a putting course on the strip in Vegas!  Full bar and more action than you could shake a stick at.  Just think of all the ringers milling about waiting for a game...The prop betting possibilities are endless...

That WOULD be an awesome idea.  I can't believe they haven't done it yet.  But it would have to be very big, because it would probably be completely destroyed by foot traffic.

[Greg Tallman]

Thanks guys, plaease continue any comments you may have on the concept in general and what it would "be worth" to you while pondering the following question as well.

 Putting Course design

1. Massive continuous green with no real 18 hole set up (marker here/hole here concept)
2. Multiple green complexes with clearly deifined individual holes, water features, native areas... etc (mini course concept)
3. Mixture of both 9 & 9 or more likely 12 & 6 with one "himilayas style complex and several as noted in #2

#1. And to answer your opening post, I think it should be free.  To put my answer in some context, I will be making my 6th trip to Bandon in a few months, so I obviously love the place..  When I am there, I use the massive putting green adjacent to the practice range a lot.  I spend at least one hour before my first round or upon my arrival day on it getting used to the suface.  However, I have spent that hour the past two times playing putting and chipping games with my playing partner - my son.  If there was a putting course conditioned the same as the course, I would just as soon let the course choose the game instead of me making it up on the current practice green.

Also, remember that Bandon has a very, very captive audience.  There is not much to do outside or inside the resort except golf.  There is no spa or any other luxury; it is all about golf and that is why it is so great and different.

In contrast to Pinehurst, where my wife went shopping and occupied herself, she was pretty bored when she accompanied me to Bandon 10 years ago, and I don't think she would ever come with me again.

So, if you are in a place like Cabo, where sun and sand are THE reasons you go to that destination, I don't know that I would ever set foot on a putting course.  When I am in sunnier climes with family - Scottsdale, Hawaii or Palm Springs - I never linger at the golf course; I play my round and get back to the family.  At Bandon, I don't think that will ever be a concern. 

I have no doubt MK knows exactly the profile of the Bandon clientele, and a putting course, just like Bandon Preserve, is something to occupy the time for those of us only capable of 18 holes of walking per day.

Cheers.

Michael, you don't think you could get the family to join you on the putting course? Beyond the low hanging fruit (degenerate golfers/gamblers) that is a big part of the reason for building such a facility in this location. Putting course then dinner at the club?

[Michael Essig]

Michael, you don't think you could get the family to join you on the putting course? Beyond the low hanging fruit (degenerate golfers/gamblers) that is a big part of the reason for building such a facility in this location. Putting course then dinner at the club?
[/quote]

Despite our many, many trips to places like Hawaii, where to pass the time I head to Wailea's courses, accompanied by my son, and putt for an hour or so on days I wasn't playing a round of golf.  My wife, who plays golf, has never, ever accompanied me.  She sits on the beach or by the pool and reads a book.

I don't know where I fit in demographically to your guests - I am a 50 year old lawyer with a +/- 7 handicap and have been playing the game since I was 4; my wife learned the game at 13, but only took it up again about 7 years ago and plays to about a 30 handicap.  Importantly, we never take a vacation to a location that doesn't have golf, and my wife has never brought her clubs.  I think she asked me to bring her putter once, so she would come with me to putt around a practice green, and I don't think she came with me.

When she was with me in Bandon, I asked her if she wanted to play, and she declined in the belief that everyone who played would be good (otherwise why would they pay $200/round), and I told her that wouldn't be the case. She walked with me each day, and soon learned the quality of golfers does not correspond to the price of the round.  As one of my playing partners started his BD round with three OB right, she said that maybe she would play next time, but she never has come back with me.

There is an all-grass mini-golf place close to a place we have vacationed for 5 or so summers, and I don't know if she has never played.  Maybe when our kids were very young - now 17 and 21 - she played.  As our kids grew older, I would take my son and our relative's kids and I was ususally the only adult; my daughter came some times and not others. 

So, in +/-30 trips to sunny destinations, she has rearely if ever picked-up a club, even a putter.  I don't think things would change anytime soon in sunnier climes.  She finally did play in Ireland last May when she was there for business, and I tagged along to play golf.  She joined me at Portmarnock on our last day, rented clubs, and loved it - despite 50 degrees and blowing 15-20. 

I realize that a putting course at Bandon, or at your resort in Cabo, would be infinitely more convenient to play because you wouldn't have to leave the property, but cocktails start at somewhere between 3 and 5 for us when we are on vacation, so eventhough I would have no problem taking a few beers down to the putting course and playing alone or with my son before dinner - that time when you envision someone like her coming to the course - I don't think she would ever join us.

Hope this helps.

[Greg Tallman]

Michael, you don't think you could get the family to join you on the putting course? Beyond the low hanging fruit (degenerate golfers/gamblers) that is a big part of the reason for building such a facility in this location. Putting course then dinner at the club?

Despite our many, many trips to places like Hawaii, where to pass the time I head to Wailea's courses, accompanied by my son, and putt for an hour or so on days I wasn't playing a round of golf.  My wife, who plays golf, has never, ever accompanied me.  She sits on the beach or by the pool and reads a book.

I don't know where I fit in demographically to your guests - I am a 50 year old lawyer with a +/- 7 handicap and have been playing the game since I was 4; my wife learned the game at 13, but only took it up again about 7 years ago and plays to about a 30 handicap.  Importantly, we never take a vacation to a location that doesn't have golf, and my wife has never brought her clubs.  I think she asked me to bring her putter once, so she would come with me to putt around a practice green, and I don't think she came with me.

When she was with me in Bandon, I asked her if she wanted to play, and she declined in the belief that everyone who played would be good (otherwise why would they pay $200/round), and I told her that wouldn't be the case. She walked with me each day, and soon learned the quality of golfers does not correspond to the price of the round.  As one of my playing partners started his BD round with three OB right, she said that maybe she would play next time, but she never has come back with me.

There is an all-grass mini-golf place close to a place we have vacationed for 5 or so summers, and I don't know if she has never played.  Maybe when our kids were very young - now 17 and 21 - she played.  As our kids grew older, I would take my son and our relative's kids and I was ususally the only adult; my daughter came some times and not others. 

So, in +/-30 trips to sunny destinations, she has rearely if ever picked-up a club, even a putter.  I don't think things would change anytime soon in sunnier climes.  She finally did play in Ireland last May when she was there for business, and I tagged along to play golf.  She joined me at Portmarnock on our last day, rented clubs, and loved it - despite 50 degrees and blowing 15-20. 

I realize that a putting course at Bandon, or at your resort in Cabo, would be infinitely more convenient to play because you wouldn't have to leave the property, but cocktails start at somewhere between 3 and 5 for us when we are on vacation, so eventhough I would have no problem taking a few beers down to the putting course and playing alone or with my son before dinner - that time when you envision someone like her coming to the course - I don't think she would ever join us.

Hope this helps.
[/quote]

Sounds as though you would enjoy it if she were to join in the golf at some level and thus you would seem to be the exact family/scenario I think we would/will/could attract - Husband golfer and the wife who plays but while on vacation thinks 200 to 350 dolllars for golf is sillly and would waste several hours of prime poolside/beach lounging/reading time.

I think if done well and presented properly we could get you as a family to the putting course... Cocktails start at 4:30 over an 18 hole putting round with the family followed by dinner at the clubhouse. Now when are you booking that trip to Cabo?

[Michael Essig]

[

Sounds as though you would enjoy it if she were to join in the golf at some level and thus you would seem to be the exact family/scenario I think we would/will/could attract - Husband golfer and the wife who plays but while on vacation thinks 200 to 350 dolllars for golf is sillly and would waste several hours of prime poolside/beach lounging/reading time.

I think if done well and presented properly we could get you as a family to the putting course... Cocktails start at 4:30 over an 18 hole putting round with the family followed by dinner at the clubhouse. Now when are you booking that trip to Cabo?

[/quote]

   Thought about trying to make the trip a few weeks ago with GCA, and it looked like it was a lot of fun.  Sorry I missed.  If it had been in Feb. or March, I may have been able to swing it.

Based on my trips, I think that I am fairly typical of your clientele.  Until this past two years when my son was old enough and good enough to play, I always played as a single.  So I was paired with new people every round.  Obviously, over the course of four hours of golf and sharing a cart you find out who they are, where they are from, and who they are traveling with.  I would guess that 95% of the time I played, my playing companions were there with their family - except Scottsdale where I often played with locals.  So, husbands are on the golf course with me - kids and wives are at the pool, beach or spa. 

I have to be honest, I don't know if I could convince my wife to go play a putting course - which means getting hot from being in the sun - before strolling into dinner.  I can hear it, "I am not going to play golf in these shoes.  Call me and we'll meet at the restaurant or come back here.  Don't be late; we have 6:00 reservations."  If we are staying in a condo or home, which we prefer to hotels, then she is probably making dinner and I need to get back to bar-b-que.

For me, a putting course would always be an after lunch, before dinner activity - exactly as you plan, but taking the wife along, or the rest of the family except my golf addicted son, is not very likely.

Again, at Bandon and their captive audience with nothing better to do, stroking it around a putting course beats watching TV.  So, for those of us who are never going to walk 36 in a day, we might go play Shorty or play B. Preserve, or fool around on a putting course, as a distraction to doing absolutely nothing but sitting around.  (Which is exactly what my son did, went and shot all of the B Preserve photos that he later posted on GCA.)  In Cabo, sitting is the primary reason for going.  At least it is for my better half.