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BCowan

Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #100 on: March 21, 2015, 12:38:27 PM »
UofM has 3 blind tee shots in a row #2, #3, and #4 (also #7).  I guess that Dr Mack guy was monotonous.

Yeah, how anyone has ever not had the UofM course in their list of best courses in the world is a mystery to me.

   I couldn't agree more, even though i know you are being sarcastic.  Ranking a course has nothing to do with a monotonous routing.  
UofM likes to measure itself in the fun factor.  

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #101 on: March 21, 2015, 12:43:27 PM »
Huh, I thought UofM measured itself against other courses by height!  ;D ;D

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #102 on: March 21, 2015, 12:44:05 PM »
Jeff,

If it truly is the only part of that property that was left in tact while the land was being used for mining and thus the native land, I withdraw my comments regarding it being unusual because I do like when a course works through different landscapes.

However, if its not, I don't think it fits with the rest of the course.

If you do like it "when a course works though different landscapes"
why would it matter if or how that area was created?

And if the area of holes 9-11 was "native",given that much of the rest of the course was "created" by the mining, does that mean the rest of the course (holes 1-8 and 12-18)are the problem  ;D and don't fit in with the rest of the course?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #103 on: March 21, 2015, 12:46:40 PM »
UofM has 3 blind tee shots in a row #2, #3, and #4 (also #7).  I guess that Dr Mack guy was monotonous.

Yeah, how anyone has ever not had the UofM course in their list of best courses in the world is a mystery to me.

   I couldn't agree more, even though i know you are being sarcastic.  Ranking a course has nothing to do with a monotonous routing.  
UofM likes to measure itself in the fun factor.  

If it's anything like the rest of UofM it will tell you how it measured in 1915 against the golf course at Ann Arbor Pioneer High School. 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2015, 12:52:29 PM »
UofM has 3 blind tee shots in a row #2, #3, and #4 (also #7).  I guess that Dr Mack guy was monotonous.   :o :o :o

Must be.
that Augusta course has way too many holes that play "uphill in one form or another" (11 or 12 about the same as Streamsong)

Come to think of it, Palmetto also has 12 holes the same way-guess it was too expensive for him to fix that when he grassed the greens

What is funny is any attempt to compare Streamsong Blue to Augusta National.

Given that ANGC was an attempt at a tribute to St Andrews, and Streamsong is linksy as any course in Florida, I'd say it's an interesting comparison, though it was not my intention.
But since you brought it up
Streamsong Blue and ANGC -both have great width
SS and ANGC-both have large Mackenzie styled undulating greens (Doak's favorite architect)
Both have 12 holes that play "uphill in one form or another"
Both have great elevation change
Both have quite a few "blind" shots-ANGC has 6
Both have multiple short grass options around the green
Augusta is often described as repetitive with so many right to left doglegs
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #105 on: March 21, 2015, 12:53:57 PM »
Jeff,
I have never been to SS, so this is more a general question. Do you not think that a course can be too repetitive at times? And if so, can't that be a valid critique? I have heard Peachtree criticized for having too many uphill approach shots. I love Peachtree, but can see what people are talking about.
If JC is right about the repetitive nature of the uphill shots, can't that be a valid complaint?

Keith,
of course a course can be too repetitive.
The Bridge was the poster child for this when it opened with 17 downhill tee shots and 13 uphill approaches.

At Streamsong Blue, the shots being referred to as blind, 6 and 9 are hardly repetitive as they have a COMPLETELY different feel.
Even though I have driven 6 the three times I've played it, the only thing blind about it is where it lands-you certainly can see the objective for the first 250 yards.
9 is a hoot driving it up into the skyline fairway.
I can't see how they're repetitive anymore than two fairways in a row where you see the ball land are repetitive.
Just because you don't see something often doesn't mean seeing it twice in a row(though differently) is a bad thing.


This is the same answer I was going to write.  I'm a little lost as to where this repetitive discussion is coming from. 

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #106 on: March 21, 2015, 12:56:36 PM »
Jeff,
I have never been to SS, so this is more a general question. Do you not think that a course can be too repetitive at times? And if so, can't that be a valid critique? I have heard Peachtree criticized for having too many uphill approach shots. I love Peachtree, but can see what people are talking about.
If JC is right about the repetitive nature of the uphill shots, can't that be a valid complaint?

Keith,
of course a course can be too repetitive.
The Bridge was the poster child for this when it opened with 17 downhill tee shots and 13 uphill approaches.

At Streamsong Blue, the shots being referred to as blind, 6 and 9 are hardly repetitive as they have a COMPLETELY different feel.
Even though I have driven 6 the three times I've played it, the only thing blind about it is where it lands-you certainly can see the objective for the first 250 yards.
9 is a hoot driving it up into the skyline fairway.
I can't see how they're repetitive anymore than two fairways in a row where you see the ball land are repetitive.
Just because you don't see something often doesn't mean seeing it twice in a row(though differently) is a bad thing.


I'm not saying 6&9 are the same shot, I'm stepping further back than that to look at the type of shot.

Nonetheless, I think it makes sense at this point to agree to disagree.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #107 on: March 21, 2015, 12:58:23 PM »
Don - I've never played SS, and very little else of note. On the one hand, TD is a top architect at the top of his game, so it is hard for me to imagine how the course could be anything less than very good. On the other hand, JC is an increasingly well travelled golfer and a smart fellow, so I think his comments on this subject and others worth reading. I keep hoping that a deeper discussion breaks out amongst the more surface disagreements about this hole or that (even though such disagreements are natural and instructive in and of themselves.) As I wrote on Max's, a thread that has smart posters grappling intelligently about what works in gca and why (specifically and in general) is very much worth reading, and I thought this could be one of those threads.  

Peter

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #108 on: March 21, 2015, 12:59:05 PM »
Jeff,
I have never been to SS, so this is more a general question. Do you not think that a course can be too repetitive at times? And if so, can't that be a valid critique? I have heard Peachtree criticized for having too many uphill approach shots. I love Peachtree, but can see what people are talking about.
If JC is right about the repetitive nature of the uphill shots, can't that be a valid complaint?

Keith,
of course a course can be too repetitive.
The Bridge was the poster child for this when it opened with 17 downhill tee shots and 13 uphill approaches.

At Streamsong Blue, the shots being referred to as blind, 6 and 9 are hardly repetitive as they have a COMPLETELY different feel.
Even though I have driven 6 the three times I've played it, the only thing blind about it is where it lands-you certainly can see the objective for the first 250 yards.
9 is a hoot driving it up into the skyline fairway.
I can't see how they're repetitive anymore than two fairways in a row where you see the ball land are repetitive.
Just because you don't see something often doesn't mean seeing it twice in a row(though differently) is a bad thing.


I'm not saying 6&9 are the same shot, I'm stepping further back than that to look at the type of shot.

Nonetheless, I think it makes sense at this point to agree to disagree.

I think it's a pretty good discussion thus far.  Nothing wrong with disagreeing.  Actually, I'd say it's becoming less and less common to read such an interesting thread, so if you or Jeff have more to say, keep at it.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #109 on: March 21, 2015, 01:00:30 PM »
Jeff,
I have never been to SS, so this is more a general question. Do you not think that a course can be too repetitive at times? And if so, can't that be a valid critique? I have heard Peachtree criticized for having too many uphill approach shots. I love Peachtree, but can see what people are talking about.
If JC is right about the repetitive nature of the uphill shots, can't that be a valid complaint?

Keith,
of course a course can be too repetitive.
The Bridge was the poster child for this when it opened with 17 downhill tee shots and 13 uphill approaches.

At Streamsong Blue, the shots being referred to as blind, 6 and 9 are hardly repetitive as they have a COMPLETELY different feel.
Even though I have driven 6 the three times I've played it, the only thing blind about it is where it lands-you certainly can see the objective for the first 250 yards.
9 is a hoot driving it up into the skyline fairway.
I can't see how they're repetitive anymore than two fairways in a row where you see the ball land are repetitive.
Just because you don't see something often doesn't mean seeing it twice in a row(though differently) is a bad thing.


I'm not saying 6&9 are the same shot, I'm stepping further back than that to look at the type of shot.

Nonetheless, I think it makes sense at this point to agree to disagree.

I was just getting warmed up! ;) ;D

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #110 on: March 21, 2015, 01:13:29 PM »


I was just getting warmed up! ;) ;D



How about this, #6 is a better long par 3 than #16.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2015, 01:21:23 PM »


I was just getting warmed up! ;) ;D



How about this, #6 is a better long par 3 than #16.

My scores reflect that.
I like 16 though, just haven't performed.
I love the way the green is just laid on the sloping land.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #112 on: March 21, 2015, 01:33:59 PM »
Great discussion.

For starters, many have agreed that the walk out to that par 3 over water is a little out of the way...which was one of Jason's points. Some think the hole makes the walk worth it. But regardless, he has a valid point.

On the repetitive nature of the holes, I didn't sense that...but that is a good question. Keith's point on Peachtree is spot on. Peachtree is excellent in my mind, but it does have a lot of uphill approaches shots. Admitting something isn't perfect with a golf course isn't the same as saying its crap. Like I said, I love Peachtree but admits it's faults.

Jason offers lots of food for thought.

Thanks.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #113 on: March 21, 2015, 05:09:16 PM »
JC,

Maybe you could expand on what flaws you see in the flow of the course.  It flows nicely to me, with the exception of the walk back on the 7th, but that's a small price to pay for that hole.  There are frequent changes in direction which adds interest in the wind.  The routing goes from short to long and back again and up and down a number of times.  I don't see any holes as being repetitive nor favoring people who only play in one direction or the other.

Perhaps you could also expand on the shortcomings you saw in the architecture and routing.  I can't think of a bad hole when considered individually and I think all the greens are brilliant one way or another.  And, as above, the routing/flow seems first rate to me.  

Maybe if you played it again you might see it differently.

Any issues I have with the place have to do with the operations and the pricing, not the architecture, routing or conditioning.

 

How do you feel about the fact that 1,3,4,6,8,9,11,13,14,16,17,18 all play up hill in one form or another?

6-11 is a good example.  It is a 6 hole stretch with 3 up hill and blind tee shots and 2 par 3s.  If half of the tee shots play the same in a 6 hole stretch that is monotonous.  The stretch is saved by 8 which is a very good hole.

I still haven't heard why the aesthetic of 9-11 makes any sense. Out of no where we enter a stretch that feels like playing through pasture land.


I feel that that is a strange perspective.  If those holes play uphill in some way or another then it could be argued that #1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 15, 17 and 18 play downhill in some fashion or other as well.  What goes up has to come down.  I've  never felt that the ups and downs were repetitive.  There are uphill tee shots and downhill tee shots and uphill and downhill shots to greens.  There are even a few level shots.  

Holes 6-11are monotonous? The 6th is an uphill then downhill short par 4th with an undulating green that slopes wildly away.  I have never lost sight of my drive ( I'm no Warne apparently).

The 7th turns more than 90* to the left of the 6th - a consideration in the often times wind.  And it's  a long iron drop shot par 3 to a brilliant green nestled in the huge dunes.

The 8th  turns again and is in the opposite direction  to the 6th.  Even you agree it's  a good hole.  A drop tee shot followed by a longish iron to a perched green.

The 9th turns 90* again and features a true blind tee shot.  The rest of the hole plays somewhat downhill with some interesting hazards for the second shot and an angled green where the angle of approach matters to most of us.

The 10th reverses direction 180* and is a level par 3 with some daunting and deep collecting bunkers.

The 11th continues in the same direction with a slightly uphill drive (that I  never lose sight of) on a long par 4. A fairway with mammoth width and a centerline bunker to complicate the drive.  A long second shot where you can actually  run the ball in, topped off by a perfectly diabolical green laying on the land.

So, long par 4,  short par 4, medium par 4, a downhill par 3 and a level par 3 along with an up and down longish par 5.  Constant changes of direction bringing the wind into play in different directions.  An uphill blind tee shot and a couple of drop tee shots and interesting different greens throughout

And, that's monotonous?!?

As for the aesthetics of 9-11,  that land is probably  closer to the pre-mining land, but I  doubt that any of the land on the site looks much like it looked before the mining.  Holes 15, 16 and the first part of 17  are on similar looking land. I suppose it's  too bad that Mosaic didn't  completely mine the whole site including where the new course will go - then they could have presented a consistent aesthetic for you.  

« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 05:14:11 PM by Bryan Izatt »

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #114 on: March 21, 2015, 06:04:47 PM »
Don - I've never played SS, and very little else of note. On the one hand, TD is a top architect at the top of his game, so it is hard for me to imagine how the course could be anything less than very good. On the other hand, JC is an increasingly well travelled golfer and a smart fellow, so I think his comments on this subject and others worth reading. I keep hoping that a deeper discussion breaks out amongst the more surface disagreements about this hole or that (even though such disagreements are natural and instructive in and of themselves.) As I wrote on Max's, a thread that has smart posters grappling intelligently about what works in gca and why (specifically and in general) is very much worth reading, and I thought this could be one of those threads.  

Peter

Peter,
Like I've written many times, I have no issue with someone who dislikes a course I like. So much is opinion and personal taste and it seems silly to try and justify what I like or attack what someone else likes/dislikes.
As for in the know posters, I walked the site before any golf work began, and I've played the Blue course three times. The landscape  before, is what is there now, so I have no idea what the "quasi-heather" statement means. Nor do I understand how defending one's point of view reveals some sort of insecurity.

The last thing I wold call SS Blue is monotonous or repetitive. However, if that is the way it feels to "a smart fellow", then more power to him.

One thing I really like about Tom is he is not a box checker. I believe he will build the best holes he can find even if that means back-to-back par 3s, par 37-34, or a couple of consecutive uphill/downhill tee shots. I believe that freedom, that confidence to not follow formula, is what helps separate Tom (and others) from the rest of the pack.

I also believe that the setting at SS bothers some people. On the drive out there all you see if flat terrain. Once there it is obvious that the ground has been severely manipulated. I think Tom and Bill built some very good golf there, but I understand why the way the "golf" land came about creates a negative emotion in some people. I sense JC had that sort of reaction and I've heard it from others as well.  Sort of like how some people feel when they see a bright green golf course in an arid desert. It just isn't comfortable for some folks and I understand that feeling.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 06:12:36 PM by Don Mahaffey »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #115 on: March 21, 2015, 06:44:24 PM »
Don,

Discussing golf holes does not reveal an insecurity.  Attacking me personally and telling me what I like and don't like because I have a different view than you about a golf course does reveal insecurity.

I was more than willing to discuss the golf course with you, but I was not interested in defending myself against your assertions of what you think I'm interested in.

Lastly, to you, Bryan and everyone else who doesn't like the fact that I thought the sacred cow was not great, I gave it a 5.  I probably would have given it a 6 were it not Doak's course because I have much higher expectations of his work based on the courses of his that I have played and loved.  So, let's say it's a 6 in my book.  It's a 7.3 in Golfweek and similar in Golf Digest.  Is 1 point less really something to get upset about?

My original post was that a day at the Blue is $375 and that's too much for a course Id give a 6.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #116 on: March 21, 2015, 07:21:53 PM »
Don,

Discussing golf holes does not reveal an insecurity.  Attacking me personally and telling me what I like and don't like because I have a different view than you about a golf course does reveal insecurity.

I was more than willing to discuss the golf course with you, but I was not interested in defending myself against your assertions of what you think I'm interested in.

Lastly, to you, Bryan and everyone else who doesn't like the fact that I thought the sacred cow was not great, I gave it a 5.  I probably would have given it a 6 were it not Doak's course because I have much higher expectations of his work based on the courses of his that I have played and loved.  So, let's say it's a 6 in my book.  It's a 7.3 in Golfweek and similar in Golf Digest.  Is 1 point less really something to get upset about?

My original post was that a day at the Blue is $375 and that's too much for a course Id give a 6.

JC,
I incorrectly gleaned from your posts that you didn't care for golf holes that require hitting a shot without the target fully visible. I guess you just don't like those shots at SS Blue or feel they were over done. Fair enough.

I know I've never called the course a sacred cow, and I don't know that I've ever called it great either. So this time it is you making unsubstantiated assertions.

I don't give a hoot what number you give any course. Until you publish all your "rankings" I have no idea what you like or dislike in golf courses.

I'm with you on the $375. While I liked the golf courses at SS, I am not a fan of the resort. Not that it isn't fine, just not my type of place.

I didn't attack you. I felt from your post that full visibility is important to you and that certainly is not an unusual preference. I think if we didn't have a history of disagreement and you went back and reviewed the string you could see how I came up with that assumption.  I honestly have no idea what you like/dislike in a golf course.   And to show how differently we look at things, my least favorite hole at SS Blue is #17. I tried to like it because everyone kept saying how good it was, but to me it was not much fun to play. maybe because I caught it on days when it was dead into the wind. But two of my favorites were #6 and #16, and I don't think they were among the holes you favored. I think we have very different tastes.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #117 on: March 21, 2015, 07:32:06 PM »
We might never agree on golf courses but we'll always have Joe Hancock.  Which should come with a support group.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #118 on: March 21, 2015, 08:14:07 PM »
We might never agree on golf courses but we'll always have Joe Hancock.  Which should come with a support group.

It does(or is it "I do"? I've never been referred to as a "which" before). Beginning on Thursday of next week, the meetings will be moved to Bar Harbor, in Mamaroneck, NY. All afflicted are welcome. And, in true West Michigan Dutch form, wings are $0.25 each...the very reason we will hold the meetings there.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 08:24:25 PM by Joe Hancock »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?
« Reply #119 on: March 21, 2015, 08:39:11 PM »
Warning: the wings are only 25 cents, but you've gotta pay $75 for every cornball joke that Joe doesn't tell.  The last time Joe treated me to a round of golf it cost me $300! It would've been more, but luckily he had a cold that day.

Peter