Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?

[Mark Saltzman]

Bryan,
As I said, I have never been, but I am intrigued reading your post.  You say that can't think of a bad hole, the Greens are brilliant, and the routing is first rate. That all sounds amazing to me. I am not sure I have played a course I would describe like that., You have really made me look  forward to see SS.

Um, Shinney?

Edit: Maybe you haven't played there.

[Keith OHalloran]

Mark,
I haven't been to SS, is it as good as Shinnecock?

[Bill_McBride]

I haven't been to Shinnecock, is it as good as the eclectic 18 at Streamsong?

[Keith OHalloran]

Bill,
What is that?

[Mark Saltzman]

I haven't been to Shinnecock, is it as good as the eclectic 18 at Streamsong?

Well, I've only spent a single afternoon at Shinney, but I think it's the perfect test of golf.  It may not be as complex as, say, NGLA, but I can't say there's a 'better' golf course anywhere else in the world.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,
What is that?

Pick the best first hole, second hole, third, etc, between Red and Blue at Streamsong.  That's the eclectic 18. 

Just kidding about Shinnecock, one of the great courses of the world although I've only seen it on tv. 

[Mark Saltzman]

Bill,
What is that?

Pick the best first hole, second hole, third, etc, between Red and Blue at Streamsong.  That's the eclectic 18. 

Just kidding about Shinnecock, one of the great courses of the world although I've only seen it on tv. 

You mean take the Blue Course then add a couple holes from the Red 

[JC Jones]

JC,

Maybe you could expand on what flaws you see in the flow of the course.  It flows nicely to me, with the exception of the walk back on the 7th, but that's a small price to pay for that hole.  There are frequent changes in direction which adds interest in the wind.  The routing goes from short to long and back again and up and down a number of times.  I don't see any holes as being repetitive nor favoring people who only play in one direction or the other.

Perhaps you could also expand on the shortcomings you saw in the architecture and routing.  I can't think of a bad hole when considered individually and I think all the greens are brilliant one way or another.  And, as above, the routing/flow seems first rate to me. 

Maybe if you played it again you might see it differently.

Any issues I have with the place have to do with the operations and the pricing, not the architecture, routing or conditioning.

 

How do you feel about the fact that 1,3,4,6,8,9,11,13,14,16,17,18 all play up hill in one form or another?

6-11 is a good example.  It is a 6 hole stretch with 3 up hill and blind tee shots and 2 par 3s.  If half of the tee shots play the same in a 6 hole stretch that is monotonous.  The stretch is saved by 8 which is a very good hole.

I still haven't heard why the aesthetic of 9-11 makes any sense. Out of no where we enter a stretch that feels like playing through pasture land.

[Don Mahaffey]

JC,

Maybe you could expand on what flaws you see in the flow of the course.  It flows nicely to me, with the exception of the walk back on the 7th, but that's a small price to pay for that hole.  There are frequent changes in direction which adds interest in the wind.  The routing goes from short to long and back again and up and down a number of times.  I don't see any holes as being repetitive nor favoring people who only play in one direction or the other.

Perhaps you could also expand on the shortcomings you saw in the architecture and routing.  I can't think of a bad hole when considered individually and I think all the greens are brilliant one way or another.  And, as above, the routing/flow seems first rate to me. 

Maybe if you played it again you might see it differently.

Any issues I have with the place have to do with the operations and the pricing, not the architecture, routing or conditioning.

 

How do you feel about the fact that 1,3,4,6,8,9,11,13,14,16,17,18 all play up hill in one form or another?

6-11 is a good example.  It is a 6 hole stretch with 3 up hill and blind tee shots and 2 par 3s.  If half of the tee shots play the same in a 6 hole stretch that is monotonous.  The stretch is saved by 8 which is a very good hole.

I still haven't heard why the aesthetic of 9-11 makes any sense. Out of no where we enter a stretch that feels like playing through pasture land.

JC, I have zero issue with you not liking this golf course. Not every course is going to suit every golfer. But your post above is just being argumentative. 6 plays up hill? Because the tee shot has a little rise before the down hill shot to the green?  Now you are basically saying if any of the ground between the the tee and green has an uphill slant, then the hole is uphill, and you are using that as a definition of monotony? That is ridiculous. Kingsley is one of my favorite golf courses in the world. Should we start counting every uphill slope there? Try it, I think you'll come up with quite a few, as you would on any course that has any sort of movement or undulation.
The aesthetic on 9-11 is the same as it is everywhere else. Maybe the Cogan grass is thicker there and not cleared as much, or maybe the maintenance staff hadn't gotten to it yet as they are in a constant battle with it ( I think, the stuff was everywhere and thick as could be when I saw it pre-construction) , but there is no use of landscape to create a different aesthetic.

[JC Jones]

Don,

True or False:  #6 is a blind tee shot.

Also, what is argumentative is bringing up Kingsley Club every time you disagree with me. 

[Don Mahaffey]

JC
I brought up Kinsley because it too has many slopes and one could make an argument that there are a lot of uphill shots. It would be a very weak argument, but one could argue it.

6 blind? It depends on your criteria. If you are in the school of "you should see everything in front of you" and your definition of a blind hole is not being able to see the entire hole, then 6 is blind. There are acclaimed architects who will grade until every golfer from every tee can see the entire hole. Lots of people like their work, and I have no issue with you being in that camp.
 
Are you suggesting all holes like #6 are bad?  Sounds like it and if so you've just eliminated a lot of very interesting golf holes.

I guess I just look at it differently then you. For me, the golf hole is the sum of it's parts and the approach shot into #6 green is, IMO, one of the best on the golf course, because of total topography of the hole. 

I think it is one of the best holes on the course. We just think differently and like different golf holes. I like some mystery, some unknown. You seem to want to see it all. You are in the majority of golfers, I think.

[jeffwarne]

JC,

Maybe you could expand on what flaws you see in the flow of the course.  It flows nicely to me, with the exception of the walk back on the 7th, but that's a small price to pay for that hole.  There are frequent changes in direction which adds interest in the wind.  The routing goes from short to long and back again and up and down a number of times.  I don't see any holes as being repetitive nor favoring people who only play in one direction or the other.

Perhaps you could also expand on the shortcomings you saw in the architecture and routing.  I can't think of a bad hole when considered individually and I think all the greens are brilliant one way or another.  And, as above, the routing/flow seems first rate to me. 

Maybe if you played it again you might see it differently.

Any issues I have with the place have to do with the operations and the pricing, not the architecture, routing or conditioning.

 

How do you feel about the fact that 1,3,4,6,8,9,11,13,14,16,17,18 all play up hill in one form or another?

6-11 is a good example.  It is a 6 hole stretch with 3 up hill and blind tee shots and 2 par 3s.  If half of the tee shots play the same in a 6 hole stretch that is monotonous.  The stretch is saved by 8 which is a very good hole.

I still haven't heard why the aesthetic of 9-11 makes any sense. Out of no where we enter a stretch that feels like playing through pasture land.

Those may be some of the most odd comments I've read on this site.
The very nature of rolling land is going to have a hole playing uphill at some point.
The knock on much of the rest of Florida is that it's too flat-now rolling and heaving terrain are no good because "parts" of a hole are uphill?

6 is a very cool hole with the perfect greensite requiring a well positioned tee shot for those who don't can't drive it, and with certain pins a very difficult approach for such a short hole if not driven on the ideal line
7-needs no defense
8-we agree
9 is an awesome hole-love the drive up and over where knowing and hitting the line gives advantages, but being offline simply negates the advantages but doesn't kill you
10-pretty good par 3
11 very difficult par 4 for reasons other than beating you over the head with water, OB, length or bunkers

I don't understand why a change of scenery(as you put it-"out of nowhere") during the course of a routing is a bad idea.I appreciate that the entire course is not routed through difficult to walk and play exmining slag heaps, and enjoy the walk out into the native landsacpe.

[JC Jones]

JC
I brought up Kinsley because it too has many slopes and one could make an argument that there are a lot of uphill shots. It would be a very weak argument, but one could argue it.

6 blind? It depends on your criteria. If you are in the school of "you should see everything in front of you" and your definition of a blind hole is not being able to see the entire hole, then 6 is blind. There are acclaimed architects who will grade until every golfer from every tee can see the entire hole. Lots of people like their work, and I have no issue with you being in that camp.
 
Are you suggesting all holes like #6 are bad?  Sounds like it and if so you've just eliminated a lot of very interesting golf holes.

I guess I just look at it differently then you. For me, the golf hole is the sum of it's parts and the approach shot into #6 green is, IMO, one of the best on the golf course, because of total topography of the hole. 

I think it is one of the best holes on the course. We just think differently and like different golf holes. I like some mystery, some unknown. You seem to want to see it all. You are in the majority of golfers, I think.

Ok.  So 6 is blind.  Which was my point. 

I'm not in any camp with respect to preferences for holes.  I like blind holes, I like holes where everything is visible and I like all types of holes in between.

My mention of 6 is in relation to having 3 blind tee shots in 6 holes, which is a response to a question about my comment on sameness and monotony.  You're trying to extrapolate from that and label me as someone who is "not you" and "in the majority".  I'd like to keep the discussion focused on the golf course and the shots and not about me personally.  Tom Doak used similar tactics in his response to me and it shows insecurity.

[JC Jones]

JC,

Maybe you could expand on what flaws you see in the flow of the course.  It flows nicely to me, with the exception of the walk back on the 7th, but that's a small price to pay for that hole.  There are frequent changes in direction which adds interest in the wind.  The routing goes from short to long and back again and up and down a number of times.  I don't see any holes as being repetitive nor favoring people who only play in one direction or the other.

Perhaps you could also expand on the shortcomings you saw in the architecture and routing.  I can't think of a bad hole when considered individually and I think all the greens are brilliant one way or another.  And, as above, the routing/flow seems first rate to me. 

Maybe if you played it again you might see it differently.

Any issues I have with the place have to do with the operations and the pricing, not the architecture, routing or conditioning.

 

How do you feel about the fact that 1,3,4,6,8,9,11,13,14,16,17,18 all play up hill in one form or another?

6-11 is a good example.  It is a 6 hole stretch with 3 up hill and blind tee shots and 2 par 3s.  If half of the tee shots play the same in a 6 hole stretch that is monotonous.  The stretch is saved by 8 which is a very good hole.

I still haven't heard why the aesthetic of 9-11 makes any sense. Out of no where we enter a stretch that feels like playing through pasture land.

Those may be some of the most odd comments I've read on this site.
The very nature of rolling land is going to have a hole playing uphill at some point.
The knock on much of the rest of Florida is that it's too flat-now rolling and heaving terrain are no good because "parts" of a hole are uphill?

6 is a very cool hole with the perfect greensite requiring a well positioned tee shot for those who don't can't drive it, and with certain pins a very difficult approach for such a short hole if not driven on the ideal line
7-needs no defense
8-we agree
9 is an awesome hole-love the drive up and over where knowing and hitting the line gives advantages, but being offline simply negates the advantages but doesn't kill you
10-pretty good par 3
11 very difficult par 4 for reasons other than beating you over the head with water, OB, length or bunkers

I don't understand why a change of scenery(as you put it-"out of nowhere") during the course of a routing is a bad idea.I appreciate that the entire course is not routed through difficult to walk and play exmining slag heaps, and enjoy the walk out into the native landsacpe.

There is nothing native about that landscape, that's for sure.

My knock on Florida golf has nothing to do with flatness, but rather, the attempt to create undulation and the tearing apart of the landscape to do so.  Thus creating water on every hole, generally on both sides or 1 side when in a housing development.  With the exception of Seminole, my two favorite courses in Florida are flat (Pine Tree and Hideout).  A course should be a reflection of its landscape.  I appreciate the architects who kept the macro landscape in tact and chose to challenge the golfer with angles.

[Don Mahaffey]

shows insecurity.

Peter Pallota, I read your post on Maxs. I hope you are seeing this.

JC, you are a piece of work. Carry on.

[jeffwarne]

JC,
What do you find "nonnative" about the landscape surrounding 9 green and 10 tee, and the length of holes 10 and 11?.
It seems to be an area unaffected by the mining operations and simply rolling Florda land that may well have been pasture if it didn't have mining operations around it

[BCowan]

UofM has 3 blind tee shots in a row #2, #3, and #4 (also #7).  I guess that Dr Mack guy was monotonous.

[jeffwarne]

UofM has 3 blind tee shots in a row #2, #3, and #4 (also #7).  I guess that Dr Mack guy was monotonous.  

Must be.
that Augusta course has way too many holes that play "uphill in one form or another" (11 or 12 about the same as Streamsong)

Come to think of it, Palmetto also has 12 holes the same way-guess it was too expensive for him to fix that when he grassed the greens

[JC Jones]

JC,
What do you find "nonnative" about the landscape surrounding 9 green and 10 tee, and the length of holes 10 and 11?.
It seems to be an area unaffected by the mining operations and simply rolling Florda land that may well have been pasture if it didn't have mining operations around it

I should have been more clear, I meant the entire resort.  You're right, the area around 9/10 does have a more normal feel for where it is in Florida.  It is just odd in the context of the rest of the property.

[JC Jones]

UofM has 3 blind tee shots in a row #2, #3, and #4 (also #7).  I guess that Dr Mack guy was monotonous.  

Must be.
that Augusta course has way too many holes that play "uphill in one form or another" (11 or 12 about the same as Streamsong)

Come to think of it, Palmetto also has 12 holes the same way-guess it was too expensive for him to fix that when he grassed the greens

What is funny is any attempt to compare Streamsong Blue to Augusta National.

[JC Jones]

UofM has 3 blind tee shots in a row #2, #3, and #4 (also #7).  I guess that Dr Mack guy was monotonous.

Yeah, how anyone has ever not had the UofM course in their list of best courses in the world is a mystery to me.

[Keith OHalloran]

Jeff,
I have never been to SS, so this is more a general question. Do you not think that a course can be too repetitive at times? And if so, can't that be a valid critique? I have heard Peachtree criticized for having too many uphill approach shots. I love Peachtree, but can see what people are talking about.
If JC is right about the repetitive nature of the uphill shots, can't that be a valid complaint?

[jeffwarne]

JC,
What do you find "nonnative" about the landscape surrounding 9 green and 10 tee, and the length of holes 10 and 11?.
It seems to be an area unaffected by the mining operations and simply rolling Florda land that may well have been pasture if it didn't have mining operations around it

I should have been more clear, I meant the entire resort.  You're right, the area around 9/10 does have a more normal feel for where it is in Florida.  It is just odd in the context of the rest of the property.

I get your comments about "nonnative" on much of the property, especially as one approaches the clubhouse coming in near the driving range.
Can you elaborate on why you don't like the routing to enter this "normal feel" area (which you described as pastureland)  "out of nowhere"?
Shouldn't a good routing try to transport you around and showcase varied parts and the diversity (if it exists)of a given property?

[JC Jones]

Jeff,

If it truly is the only part of that property that was left in tact while the land was being used for mining and thus the native land, I withdraw my comments regarding it being unusual because I do like when a course works through different landscapes.

However, if its not, I don't think it fits with the rest of the course.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,
I have never been to SS, so this is more a general question. Do you not think that a course can be too repetitive at times? And if so, can't that be a valid critique? I have heard Peachtree criticized for having too many uphill approach shots. I love Peachtree, but can see what people are talking about.
If JC is right about the repetitive nature of the uphill shots, can't that be a valid complaint?

Keith,
of course a course can be too repetitive.
The Bridge was the poster child for this when it opened with 17 downhill tee shots and 13 uphill approaches.

At Streamsong Blue, the shots being referred to as blind, 6 and 9 are hardly repetitive as they have a COMPLETELY different feel.
Even though I have driven 6 the three times I've played it, the only thing blind about it is where it lands-you certainly can see the objective for the first 250 yards.
9 is a hoot driving it up into the skyline fairway.
I can't see how they're repetitive anymore than two fairways in a row where you see the ball land are repetitive.
Just because you don't see something often doesn't mean seeing it twice in a row(though differently) is a bad thing.