Only time for one. Streamsong Blue or Red?

[JC Jones]

I can't say that for sure as I've not played Red but Blue is not worth the trip nor the money in my opinion.  The rack rate + caddie for a course I'd give a 5 would be tough to stomach (more so than the hot dog).

I found the routing to be OK and severely disjointed in parts.  Many green to tee walks were longer than necessary to ensure elevated tee shots and "vistas".  For what I'm not sure as severely damaged waste land from strip mining and a Mosaic factory aren't exactly eye candy.

I thought the quasi-heather experience on 8-10 was out of character for the rest of the course, although I liked that stretch of holes.

There are a few really good holes out there, the par 5s and 17 in particular is a great hole but all in all there is a lot of monotony and sameness that I didn't find all that interesting and I'm really disappointed in the effort that was made to incorporate #7.

[Keith OHalloran]

It is interesting that you found the walk disjointed. I have never been there, are there a lot of tee choices? Could your choice of tees played into the feeling you got? In other words, would it have been less disjointed from a particular set?

[William_G]

JC

So what did you really think about SS Blue?

The hike to first tee is the first of many no doubt.

[JC Jones]

It is interesting that you found the walk disjointed. I have never been there, are there a lot of tee choices? Could your choice of tees played into the feeling you got? In other words, would it have been less disjointed from a particular set?

I don't think so.  Had I played the back tees there would be a climb up and then a walk back.  Certainly some holes where the green tied into the next tee (and there were some holes like that out there) playing the backs would have helped but most of the time the walk from green to tee lands you where the black/silver tees are.

[JC Jones]

JC

So what did you really think about SS Blue?

The hike to first tee is the first of many no doubt.

I don't get the climb for #1.  I think the hole would be cooler playing from down low, and again, the vistas ain't that hot.

[Eric Smith]

So what? They do the same thing with water slides too, JC. It's not that big a deal. Note: I took the shuttle, baby!

[William_G]

Water slides, zip-lines, bungie jumps, parachuting, hang gliding, whatever...

they are all better at a visually stimulating location

[Mac Plumart]

Evidently, I liked Streamsong Blue a lot more than Jason.
 

But he's got some great points on the routing/walk. That walk up the hill to simply get to the first tee is odd and then that walk out and back to the par 3 over the pond seems a little forced.

[William_G]

SS Black might be the one as opposed to 1 of 2 "mutually" "fit" onto a site

[Adam Lawrence]

Evidently, I liked Streamsong Blue a lot more than Jason.
 

But he's got some great points on the routing/walk. That walk up the hill to simply get to the first tee is odd and then that walk out and back to the par 3 over the pond seems a little forced.

As to the latter, I dunno. As soon as you decide to put a green there you know it is going to cause you a routing problem. Either you bring the players back across the water, or you make them climb the hill behind the green. Neither is ideal. But I think the hole is 'worth the detour'.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
Hopefully I can learn something from you here. How is the bunker front left on number 5 supposed to play.  The sand was extremely deep at the bottom which has to be 20 feet down. I could see a high handicapper never getting out and the ball rolling down and into his foot prints from his hike down. Almost happened to me. The other was on #7. Back pin and I hit it into the bunker on the right side. The ball buried on the side hill down slope towards the pin. I would have thought it would be almost impossible for the ball to bury there. Was your intention for them to play so severe?

Rob:

I missed this in November; I've been traveling a lot.

The situation you describe on #7 is unfortunate.  When we were building the hole, we wondered if you could play the ball off the dune at the back and have it come down on the green, the sand was so firm.  However, lots and lots of play and bunker raking tends to soften them up over time.  I'm still surprised a ball plugged as you described.

I'm not as bothered on #5.  Apparently a lot of people are missing in the same spot so the sand is getting stirred up far too much and playability is difficult.  But if you pull it left of that green, you are lucky just to find your ball and have a swing at it again!  And if the lie is truly unplayable you might be better to go back to the tee and hit three.

[Jason Topp]

Tom:

Was there any thought of putting the 8th tee to the left of 16 Red green?  I thought such a tee might work.  It would eliminate the walk back and create a cape type tee shot but I suspect the fairway would be blind. 

[Tom_Doak]

Was there any thought of putting the 8th tee to the left of 16 Red green?  I thought such a tee might work.  It would eliminate the walk back and create a cape type tee shot but I suspect the fairway would be blind. 

No ... though I'm not 100% sure I'm understanding where you are suggesting.  The only practical escape from #7 green other than where we went was out a narrow trail at the back, which puts you right of #18 Red fairway.  Remember, we were dealing with golf carts [they still have them in the summer], and none of us thought it was a good idea to put carts across the big lake on a bridge.

There was a little slot at the top of the hill between #7 Blue and #16 Red greens that I thought Bill would use for a back tee on #17.  It's a spectacular view from up there, but he wanted to keep #17 short.

[Bill_McBride]

Evidently, I liked Streamsong Blue a lot more than Jason.
 

But he's got some great points on the routing/walk. That walk up the hill to simply get to the first tee is odd and then that walk out and back to the par 3 over the pond seems a little forced.

As to the latter, I dunno. As soon as you decide to put a green there you know it is going to cause you a routing problem. Either you bring the players back across the water, or you make them climb the hill behind the green. Neither is ideal. But I think the hole is 'worth the detour'.

Agreed, and one of the few I can think of in decades of golf.   

[Bill_McBride]

JC

So what did you really think about SS Blue?

The hike to first tee is the first of many no doubt.

I don't get the climb for #1.  I think the hole would be cooler playing from down low, and again, the vistas ain't that hot.

I think it messes with your mind from up there.  It's the first hole so you ought to be reasonably fresh!

[Bill Brightly]

Evidently, I liked Streamsong Blue a lot more than Jason.
 

But he's got some great points on the routing/walk. That walk up the hill to simply get to the first tee is odd and then that walk out and back to the par 3 over the pond seems a little forced.

As to the latter, I dunno. As soon as you decide to put a green there you know it is going to cause you a routing problem. Either you bring the players back across the water, or you make them climb the hill behind the green. Neither is ideal. But I think the hole is 'worth the detour'.

Agreed, and one of the few I can think of in decades of golf.  

I agree. If you are going to make me walk back, it better be for a damn goos reason, a damn cool hole. And that hole qualifies. Plus, as one who enjoys walks on wooden bridges over water with a chance to see alligators and huge largemouth bass, I do not mind walking back across that bridge. (But I'm not a fan of the last 50 steps on the sand path!)

[Tom_Doak]

Many green to tee walks were longer than necessary to ensure elevated tee shots and "vistas".  

JC:

It's fine when people don't like my courses, but not when they cite facts that are wrong.  Here's a hole by hole:

Hole 1 to 2:  tees are right there
2 to 3:  tees are right there, except you have to hike back to the back tee, that almost no one plays
3 to 4:  tees are right there
4 to 5:  tees are a bit behind the green, to provide a variety of angles to the green
5 to 6:  tees are right there
6 to 7:  a bit of a walk back off the green, but it's flat and easy
7 to 8:  a long walk, out of necessity
8 to 9:  tees are pretty close ... and the furthest ones are the low ones that have no "vista"
9 to 10:  tees are right there
10 to 11:  a fairly long walk, especially to the forward tees ... no vista, just trying to get players to drive it to where they could see the green for their second shots
11 to 12:  actually, too CLOSE
12 to 13:  a fairly long walk, to accommodate the transition on the Red course
13 to 14:  a fairly long walk, so you could get over the lake
14 to 15:  tees are right there
15 to 16:  tees are right there
16 to 17:  a bit of a walk, because 17 is so long as it is
17 to 18:  tees are right there
18 to 19:  long, to accommodate practice facilities and to avoid the pond just behind the 18th green; but I don't really count this

The ONLY walk you could make a case for being included to improve the vista is the hike up to #1 tee.  I used to hike it every morning when I was on site; I always figured they would shuttle up the guests.  We did put a tee down below, for purists like yourself, but the hole is short enough that we were afraid people might drive the green blindly from down below.  Of course, I doubt that's a problem for you.

[JC Jones]

Tom,

So, including #1, the walk from 2 to the Black tee on 3, the walk to 7 and the ones you highlighted we are talking half the holes.  I'll stand by what I said especially since I also said there were some that tied the tee to the green, which you apparently overlooked.

It's not your best work, you've already said you had to make compromises for the routing and those were apparent to me.  Perhaps I am showing some bias here because my expectations of your routings are very high given past experience and I am maybe more so disappointed when they don't live up to expectations.  I think the hazards on the back must have been very difficult to work around considering you were hemmed in by the red course and that created some very awkward holes, particularly 12 & 13.

maybe the course makes more sense when played with only a 1 iron and a putter.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Heading down to Orlando tomorrow and I only have time to play one round at Streamsong.  For those of you who have played both, would you recommend Red or Blue for this one round?

I am going to say that based on feedback so far, if your handicap is less than 8, you're 75% likely to prefer the Red course, and if your handicap is 10 or more, you're 75% likely to prefer the Blue.

The odd thing about that, though, is that the course ratings and slope ratings for the two courses are almost identical. [Blue is 74.1/131, Red is 74.2/130]  So, I do wonder if most of the above is really built-in preconceptions of the differences between Bill's courses and mine, instead of actual differences on the ground.


My stuff starts here.........


That is very interesting and probably one that I would agree with 100% on the handicap basis.
I think visually and for a first time player Red appears to be more challenging and in your face with the shot demands, but upon more rounds the demands of the two coursesre very hard to seperate.
 On my first visit there, I thought that the red played about 2 or 3 shots harder but after about 5 rounds on both my guess now is that  tour Event staged on both courses would show very littel difference between shot averages on both courses.

I dont really understand all the criticism on the longs walks?
Yes there are a couple where the walk is forced upon you by the thrill of tyhe hoel, such as the three par, but overall it is not that bad.
It certainly cannot contribute  more than 10 minutes to the round,and in my opinion doesnt distarct fromw hat is a very good golf course.

[Tom_Doak]

It's not your best work, you've already said you had to make compromises for the routing and those were apparent to me.  Perhaps I am showing some bias here because my expectations of your routings are very high given past experience and I am maybe more so disappointed when they don't live up to expectations.

The routing of the Red and Blue courses was done together, with Bill Coore and me working together on it.  I think it has to be looked at through that prism.  The transitions from 7 to 8 and 12 to 13 on the Blue course, and even the long walk to the 1st tee and back from the 18th green, exist in order to make the two courses work together.  I don't think I need to make any apologies for those.  And aside from those, there really isn't anything out of the ordinary.

[Bryan Izatt]

JC,

I've played the Blue course 10 times over the last three years.  I'm on the old side of things and walking 18 (or 36) is getting to be more of a challenge each passing year, but I have never thought that the routing and green to tee walks were in any way a problem.  The hike up to #1, from #7 to #8 and from #12 to #13 get your walking attention, but the holes around those walks are definitely worth the walk.  The first time I played there, they shuttled us up to #1, but subsequently they haven't.  I expect the road up would wear out pretty quickly if they were constantly shuttling people up and down.

I agree with you vis-a-vis the cost of playing at SS.  But, so far, I like the courses enough that I've bitten the bullet and paid (to walk with no caddy).

You should probably skip going back to play the Red.  It will also seem to be a tough walk for you and a somewhat disjointed routing.


...........................


Re the opening post, I have generally chosen to play the Blue when I only have time for one round.  My minor criticisms of the Red are that the start is too hard and the stretch of long par 4's on the back is too challenging for me even moving up a tee on the back side.  Also the Blue seems to me to be a more forgiving course off the tee and it's always nice to have a second shot even if you are off at a bad angle.  And, the Blue greens are more entertaining (but not easier) for me.

[Jimmy Chandler]

but all in all there is a lot of monotony and sameness that I didn't find all that interesting and I'm really disappointed in the effort that was made to incorporate #7.

JC is of course entitled to his opinion, but for anyone reading this thread who has not played SS, I wouldn't take this as a reason not to go. I'd bet 9 out of 10 people who have played SS Blue would disagree with JC's contention of "monotony and sameness." Of all the criticisms I can think of, that never occurred to me at all. I found the course fascinating and original. I think at least half the holes are true standouts (1, 4-7, 11-13, 17-18, that's at least 10 holes I can remember that I love).

My biggest criticism/concern would be is SS worth the cost? To me I'm glad I went two winters ago, and would consider returning when then build another course or two.

[JC Jones]

JC,

I've played the Blue course 10 times over the last three years.  I'm on the old side of things and walking 18 (or 36) is getting to be more of a challenge each passing year, but I have never thought that the routing and green to tee walks were in any way a problem.  The hike up to #1, from #7 to #8 and from #12 to #13 get your walking attention, but the holes around those walks are definitely worth the walk.  The first time I played there, they shuttled us up to #1, but subsequently they haven't.  I expect the road up would wear out pretty quickly if they were constantly shuttling people up and down.

I agree with you vis-a-vis the cost of playing at SS.  But, so far, I like the courses enough that I've bitten the bullet and paid (to walk with no caddy).

You should probably skip going back to play the Red.  It will also seem to be a tough walk for you and a somewhat disjointed routing.


...........................


Re the opening post, I have generally chosen to play the Blue when I only have time for one round.  My minor criticisms of the Red are that the start is too hard and the stretch of long par 4's on the back is too challenging for me even moving up a tee on the back side.  Also the Blue seems to me to be a more forgiving course off the tee and it's always nice to have a second shot even if you are off at a bad angle.  And, the Blue greens are more entertaining (but not easier) for me.

Brian,

There is a difference between the difficulty of the walk and the flow of the course that comes as a result of the routing.

Certainly long transitions can lead to a walk being more difficult but I'm discussing architecture and routing. 

[Bryan Izatt]

JC,

Maybe you could expand on what flaws you see in the flow of the course.  It flows nicely to me, with the exception of the walk back on the 7th, but that's a small price to pay for that hole.  There are frequent changes in direction which adds interest in the wind.  The routing goes from short to long and back again and up and down a number of times.  I don't see any holes as being repetitive nor favoring people who only play in one direction or the other.

Perhaps you could also expand on the shortcomings you saw in the architecture and routing.  I can't think of a bad hole when considered individually and I think all the greens are brilliant one way or another.  And, as above, the routing/flow seems first rate to me. 

Maybe if you played it again you might see it differently.

Any issues I have with the place have to do with the operations and the pricing, not the architecture, routing or conditioning.

 

[Keith OHalloran]

Bryan,
As I said, I have never been, but I am intrigued reading your post.  You say that can't think of a bad hole, the Greens are brilliant, and the routing is first rate. That all sounds amazing to me. I am not sure I have played a course I would describe like that., You have really made me look  forward to see SS.