Worst 18 holes on recognized courses in order.

[Ronald Montesano]

i. #5 at Bethpage Black is excellent. Challenging drive that can be drawn or faded. Placement in fairway determines what you do next. If forced to lay up at base of hill, plays like a great par 4.5. If you go for the green you might miss, but the recovery is manageable, whether in sand or grass. Green is challenging but not overly so after such a difficult route.

ii. Look at the "Best 18 Holes In Order" thread. A bunch of loud mouths (present company included) crowing about their favorites. Now look at this one. Did anyone else offer up a list? John reveals his genius for engagement on this thread. I hope he paid up on that offer from last summer.

[JMEvensky]

 if I had to pick a hole as the worst at Augusta I would go with the 15th.

Only an architect could make this statement and not have it be dismissed out of hand.

Do you think it's a bad hole in the absolute or just relative to the other 17?

[Sean_A]

This is hard to do because I don't think there are many bad holes.  Going on least admirable holes; my first run through.

1. Painswick - the course is recognized here - if architecture is this bad it should at least be downhill

2. Bulls Bay - a slog par 5 bending around water the whole way Pennard

3. North Berwick - a slog par 4 to an uninteresting green - the wall gets too much credit

4. Sandwich - to come up with this after altering a famous hole is unforgivable

5. Whittington Heath - sad, very sad

6. Aberdovey - blah

7. Carne - a truly bad hole with a greensite which is laughable  Dornoch

8. Addington - hogback hell

9. Cruden Bay - this is one of the most boring holes I have ever come across on a famous course  TOC - doesn't work on any level

10. Ballybunion Cashen - crazy narrow - just a bad hole Little Aston

11. Lahinch - there can be no excuse for taking out the Dr Mac hole

12. Hoylake - noah canah do two reverse doglegs in three holes

13. Ballybunion Old - may as well be at Carne

14. St Enodoc - nothing to recommend it

15. Notts - way too long given the green site  Cruden Bay

16. Yeamans Hall - Biaritzzzzzzzzzzzz, not a great concept

17. Tobacco Road - don't know why anyone plays the 17th when the 18th tee is a shorter walk from the 16th green

18. Machrihanish - what a shocker  Harlech, Co Down

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

I used the same courses from my top 18 as a reference.  I gave the courses praise, now I take it away... kinda of.  At a minimum, some are just my least favorite holes on that course.

1  Pacific Dunes (one of my favorites needs better opener - need to lower tee and make fairway wider - worst hole on course)
2  Country Club (PP) (boring par 5 with little interest - worst hole on course)
3  Wolf Creek (I usually like uphill par 3s like Dismal River #5, but this one is just stupid - horrible hole on any course)
4  Muirfield Village (feels like hole that was needed to connect the routing - just awkward hole)
5  Ballyneal (#5-6 are the least memorable holes on great course)
6  Calusa Pines (fine hole, but 2nd of a back to back doglegs right - so much so it is hard to differentiate them after playing)
7  Dunes Club (nice hole but probably least favorite on course)
8  Bandon Dunes (average hole - hit drive left and have open green with little interest - actually dislike #9 and #18 more though)
9  Old MacDonald (decent hole, but not a great Cape - worst hole on course)
10  Pinehurst #2  (long par 5 that lacks the interest of other holes - worst hole on course)
11 Oakmont (boring short par 4 that is too similar to 14 - hard time picking between #10, 11 and 14)
12  Sand Hills (had to pick one so it was either 9 or 12, which are the only average holes on the course)
13  Pete Dye (worst par 3 on course - just not much going on - and clearly done solely to connect 12 and 14)
14  Dismal River (would be good if it had fairway on top of left ridge so it played on top of ridge instead of down in it - green is good)
15  Oakland Hills (middle fairway bunker on a narrow hole to begin with - doesn't work IMHO - could have picked #6, #12 and #16 too)
16  Bandon Trails (great green, but pretty boring slog getting there - worst hole on course)
17  Brookside (long straight par 5 - worst hole on course, but could have picked #5 which is a good hole that does not fit the course)
18  Arcadia Bluffs (possibly the worst hole on a top 100 in the US - just terrible hole)

Ron,

Michael George used his list from the best of thread to make the above.  It is an interesting exercise that might be fun for others to try.  I've considered doing a reverso myself.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is hard to do because I don't think there are many bad holes.  Going on least admirable holes; my first run through.

1. Painswick - the course is recognized here

2. Bulls Bay - a slog par 5 bending around water the whole way Pennard

3. North Berwick - a slog par 4 to an uninteresting green - the wall gets too much credit

4. Sandwich - to come up with this after altering a famous hole is unforgivable

5. Whittington Heath - sad, very sad

6. Aberdovey - blah

7. Carne - a truly bad hole with a greensite which is laughable  Dornoch

8. Addington - hogback hell

9. Cruden Bay - this is one of the most boring holes I have ever come across on a famous course  TOC - doesn't work on any level

10. Ballybunion Cashen - crazy narrow - just a bad hole Little Aston

11. Lahinch - there can be no excuse for taking out the Dr Mac hole

12. Hoylake - noah canah do two reverse doglegs in three holes

13. Ballybunion Old - may as well be at Carne

14. St Enodoc - nothing to recommend it

15. Notts - way too long given the green site  Cruden Bay

16. Yeamans Hall - Biaritzzzzzzzzzzzz, not a great concept

17. Tobacco Road - don't know why anyone plays the 17th when the 18th tee is a shorter walk from the 16th green

18. Machrihanish - what a shocker  Harlech, Co Down

Ciao

Sean,

Great list.  I included the 18th at Tobacco Road for partially the same reason.  It just might be the 17th and final hole.

[Ronald Montesano]

1st. Yale
2nd. Colgate Univ.
3rd. Lookout Point (Ontario)
4th. Bandon Trails
5th. Kebo Valley
6th. CC Buffalo
7th. Fox Chapel
8th. Old Town
9th. Tobacco Road
10th. Taconic
11th.  Cherry Hill (Ontario)
12th. Springville (NY)
13th. Pacific Dunes
14th. Arrowhead (Akron, NY)
15th. Bethpage Black
16th. Bandon Dunes
17th. The Old Course
18th. Park Club (Williamsville, NY)

1st. Kebo Valley
2nd. Springville (NY)
3rd. Fox Chapel
4th. Taconic
5th. Old Town Club
6th. Bethpage Black
7th. Bandon Trails
8th. Colgate
9th. Pacific Dunes
10th. Park Club (Williamsville, NY)
11th.  Lookout Point (Ontario)
12th. Arrowhead (NY)
13th. Tobacco Road
14th. Cherry Hill(Ontario)
15th. Yale
16th.  The Old Course
17th. Country Club of Buffalo (caveat: the old RTJ hole, not the neo-classic redo currently under construction.)
18th. Bandon Dunes

Now THAT was difficult. I'd say I'm 95% happy with my selections for worst/least favorite over the same 18 holes.

[Bill_McBride]

This is hard to do because I don't think there are many bad holes.  Going on least admirable holes; my first run through.

1. Painswick - the course is recognized here

2. Bulls Bay - a slog par 5 bending around water the whole way Pennard

3. North Berwick - a slog par 4 to an uninteresting green - the wall gets too much credit

4. Sandwich - to come up with this after altering a famous hole is unforgivable

5. Whittington Heath - sad, very sad

6. Aberdovey - blah

7. Carne - a truly bad hole with a greensite which is laughable  Dornoch

8. Addington - hogback hell

9. Cruden Bay - this is one of the most boring holes I have ever come across on a famous course  TOC - doesn't work on any level

10. Ballybunion Cashen - crazy narrow - just a bad hole Little Aston

11. Lahinch - there can be no excuse for taking out the Dr Mac hole

12. Hoylake - noah canah do two reverse doglegs in three holes

13. Ballybunion Old - may as well be at Carne

14. St Enodoc - nothing to recommend it

15. Notts - way too long given the green site  Cruden Bay

16. Yeamans Hall - Biaritzzzzzzzzzzzz, not a great concept

17. Tobacco Road - don't know why anyone plays the 17th when the 18th tee is a shorter walk from the 16th green

18. Machrihanish - what a shocker  Harlech, Co Down

Ciao

Sean,

Great list.  I included the 18th at Tobacco Road for partially the same reason.  It just might be the 17th and final hole.

If I remember correctly, there was room for a good par 3 in the middle of the back nine that could have replaced #17 and avoided that heinous walk back. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Does the 9th at Pacific Dunes still have alternating greens?

[Ronald Montesano]

According to the website, it does. That was my reason for picking it. Figured a hole that couldn't make up its mind was too far gone to be validated. Truth be told, I'd probably like to alternate it every day.

[Tom_Doak]

 if I had to pick a hole as the worst at Augusta I would go with the 15th.

Only an architect could make this statement and not have it be dismissed out of hand.

Do you think it's a bad hole in the absolute or just relative to the other 17?

JM:  I'm not sure I would say it's a bad hole, but I think it's horribly overrated.

It makes sense for the great players, and only the great players who can fly their second shots to the green and hit them high enough to make the ball stop from going over.

For everybody else, it's a lay-up second shot (unless you are punching your second shot under some trees, as I've had to do), followed by a nasty pitch from a steep downhill stance with no margin for error.  Come up short, and you're in the water.  Go over the green, and it's very difficult to chip back onto the green without going into the pond in front.  It's a very penal hole, you have to hit the shots you're forced to hit.

So I guess I do think it's a bad hole, after all.

It was not always that way, of course.  When Sarazen made his 2 there was just a little stream in front of the green, there was a bit of room on the right to try and make a shorter carry and work the ball around to the hole, and if you went over the green you weren't so fearful of the water in front on your next shot.  But that hole wouldn't be hard enough for the best players in the world ... and Augusta only cares about the best players in the world, safe in the knowledge that if they provide an exciting tournament no one will dare question the quality of the individual holes.

[John Ezekowitz]

Okay, I'll give it a go using only courses I have played:

1. Sunningdale New
2. Boston Golf Club
3. Bandon Dunes
4. The Country Club
5. Congressional
6. The Country Club
7. Boston Golf Club
8. Philly Cricket-Wissahickon
9. Pacific Dunes
10. Torrey Pines South
11. Galloway National
12. Congressional
13. Mountain Lake
14. Deal
15. Torrey Pines South
16. Bandon Trails
17. Old Macdonald
18. Sunningdale New

[jim_lewis]

Chip Beck, the wimp, got what he deserved when he decided to lay up on 15. I was glad he didn't win because I didn't want to have to watch him play until he reached 65. Absolutely painful to watch, worse that Langer or even Keegan Bradley.

I don't recall seeing a leader hit the Eisenhour Tree, but I have seen several hit into the trees on the right in an effort to miss it. Olazabal hit a miracle iron from under the edge of the tree the last time he won. Worse hole at ANGC followed closely by 7 and 18, which is the most overrated hole on the course, not 15.

[Tom_Doak]

Chip Beck, the wimp, got what he deserved when he decided to lay up on 15. I was glad he didn't win because I didn't want to have to watch him play until he reached 65. Absolutely painful to watch, worse that Langer or even Keegan Bradley.

I don't recall seeing a leader hit the Eisenhour Tree, but I have seen several hit into the trees on the right in an effort to miss it. Olazabal hit a miracle iron from under the edge of the tree the last time he won. Worse hole at ANGC followed closely by 7 and 18, which is the most overrated hole on the course, not 15.

How can 18 be overrated?  I've never heard anyone say they liked it.  But, some of those you mentioned are worse than 15.  I just like to pick on 15 because a lot of people think it's a great hole, and because it illustrates that a good hole for pros can be an awful hole for everyone else.

[jim_lewis]

Tom:

I concede the point that 18 is rarely praised. I think I am still reacting to a thread sometime back where someone listed it among the best finishing holes. I actually think it is one of the worst finishing holes among the otherwise elite courses. It gets worse everytime they move the tee back. The tee shot is far too demanding, even for the best players. Who wants a finishing hole that is a struggel just to walk up the hill? Not if you are over 40.

Come to think of it, I don't know that 15 gets "ranked" high often. It pales in comparison to 13. As you know, the 3rd shot off a downhill lie can be very scary on 15.

[Will Lozier]

What I would like to see in real time would have been just how small the tree was back when Eisenhower played.  It looks like a monster now but has managed to grow with the game.

John,

I think the Eisenhower tree is just above the old L-shaped 7th green in this fantastic b&w aerial:  

http://www.masters.com/en_US/index.html

This looks like very close to '34.

I'd have to weigh in on ANGC's worst, in current form, is the 7th - dead straight tight with a severely mismatched green.  The hole screams artificiality.  On new Tiger game, it will be most fun to play the original versions of 7(original intent without bunkers), 9(green), 10(greensite), 11(dogleg with loads of room and creek usage), 16(just seems like a better hole!).  


Ron,

The 1st at Kebo is a very clever starting hole with a preferred angle coming into one of my favorite and most subtle greens I know of...I'll PM you as I'd love to talk about Kebo.

Cheers

[Ronald Montesano]

I could easily flip my 1st two holes. The golf course doesn't get going until the 4th hole. 1-3 are not very inspired at Springville.

[John Kavanaugh]

Okay, I'll give it a go using only courses I have played:

1. Sunningdale New
2. Boston Golf Club
3. Bandon Dunes
4. The Country Club
5. Congressional
6. The Country Club
7. Boston Golf Club
8. Philly Cricket-Wissahickon
9. Pacific Dunes
10. Torrey Pines South
11. Galloway National
12. Congressional
13. Mountain Lake
14. Deal
15. Torrey Pines South
16. Bandon Trails
17. Old Macdonald
18. Sunningdale New

John,

That is an amazing list. What is the story on the 5th at Congressional. I'm thinking of going with that on my next revision.

[John Ezekowitz]

Okay, I'll give it a go using only courses I have played:

1. Sunningdale New
2. Boston Golf Club
3. Bandon Dunes
4. The Country Club
5. Congressional
6. The Country Club
7. Boston Golf Club
8. Philly Cricket-Wissahickon
9. Pacific Dunes
10. Torrey Pines South
11. Galloway National
12. Congressional
13. Mountain Lake
14. Deal
15. Torrey Pines South
16. Bandon Trails
17. Old Macdonald
18. Sunningdale New

John,

That is an amazing list. What is the story on the 5th at Congressional. I'm thinking of going with that on my next revision.

5 at Congressional is actually the 2nd shortest par 4 on the course. Dogleg left where if you hit a good drive, you'll have a wedge in. My problems with it are the fairway bunkers on the left that aren't mowed near the fairway, the ugly containment mounding and pines on the right, and the boring green on such a short hole. The green basically has one slope (back left to front right) and two interesting pin positions (front right and middle/back left).

I actually think there are worse holes at Congo (6, 7, and 15 come to mind), but I had others to slot in for those.

[Sean_A]

This is hard to do because I don't think there are many bad holes.  Going on least admirable holes; my first run through.

1. Painswick - the course is recognized here

2. Bulls Bay - a slog par 5 bending around water the whole way Pennard

3. North Berwick - a slog par 4 to an uninteresting green - the wall gets too much credit

4. Sandwich - to come up with this after altering a famous hole is unforgivable

5. Whittington Heath - sad, very sad

6. Aberdovey - blah

7. Carne - a truly bad hole with a greensite which is laughable  Dornoch

8. Addington - hogback hell

9. Cruden Bay - this is one of the most boring holes I have ever come across on a famous course  TOC - doesn't work on any level

10. Ballybunion Cashen - crazy narrow - just a bad hole Little Aston

11. Lahinch - there can be no excuse for taking out the Dr Mac hole

12. Hoylake - noah canah do two reverse doglegs in three holes

13. Ballybunion Old - may as well be at Carne

14. St Enodoc - nothing to recommend it

15. Notts - way too long given the green site  Cruden Bay

16. Yeamans Hall - Biaritzzzzzzzzzzzz, not a great concept

17. Tobacco Road - don't know why anyone plays the 17th when the 18th tee is a shorter walk from the 16th green

18. Machrihanish - what a shocker  Harlech, Co Down

Ciao

Sean,

Great list.  I included the 18th at Tobacco Road for partially the same reason.  It just might be the 17th and final hole.

If I remember correctly, there was room for a good par 3 in the middle of the back nine that could have replaced #17 and avoided that heinous walk back. 

Ace

I am not sure, but I think the land which one walks thru between 12 and 13 was not available when the course was designed.  It is plainly obvious that all that can be done should be to build a par 3 there and leave #17 as an extra hole for cart ballers.  Jeepers, seeing 17 & 18 tees next to each other that first time was an incredible let down - one of the worst routing nightmares I have come across.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

1. Crooked Stick
2. Riviera
3. Cuscowilla
4. Muirfield Village
5. Congressional
6. Ballyneal
7. Dismal River
8. Victoria National
9. Sand Hills

10. Pasatiempo
11. Bandon Trails
12. Pebble Beach
13. Wolf Run
14. Deal
15. Yale
16. Yeamans Hall
17. Olympic Lake
18. Augusta National

After further review and considering the previous submissions I believe the above list is an improvement.  Any further commentary would be appreciated.  I believe I have included something from everyone who has posted a list.

[Matthew Petersen]

I liked Michael George's idea of using the same 18 courses used in the "best" thread, which also encompasses only courses I've played.

1. Dove Mountain Golf Club (Marana, AZ), par 4 - An awkward hole for the tour pro, where even a laid up drive often results in an awkward wedge or short iron from a downhill lie, but an overlong par 4 (especially as a starter) for the typical resort player, and a very tough forced carry to a difficult green. Not a very good hole for pros or hacks.

2. The Ridge at Castle Pines North (Castle Rock, CO) - The whole front nine is pretty forgettable. 7 is probably the worse hole, but this is just a bizarre exercise in covering ground, with a pond stuck on at the green in the hope of creating some kind of interest.

3. We-Ko-Pa Saguaro (Ft McDowell, AZ), The most bland par 4 on the course.

4. Seven Canyons (Sedona, AZ), par 3 - an entirely unnecessary drop shot par 3. The green is closer to #3 than the tee box. So your forced to climb way up to a tee box to shoot straight down to a boring green. The only reason this hole exists is for photographs.

5. Southern Dunes (Maricopa, AZ) - Not a terrible hole, just an awkward one. Demands either a huge drive, or a big sligning slice off the tee.

6. Princeville (Kauai, HI), par 4 - Totally forgettable.

7. Troon North Monument (Scottsdale, AZ), short par 4 - Straight uphill, kind of a weird exercise in trying to disguise getting from point A to B as a quirky drive-able hole.

8. Challenge at Manele (Lanai, HI), par 3 - 8 and 9 (plus 18) are the holes that just feel out of place with the rest of the course.

9. Franklin GC (Franklin, NE), bland par 3 - Very literally only exists to get back to the clubhouse.

10. Kapalua Plantation (Maui, HI), short par 4 - I found this hole awkward. Nothing terrible.

11. Wailea Gold (Maui, HI) - Again, no crime here, just no real interest either.

12. Pebble Beach (CA), par 3 - 11 isn't a terrible hole, though anything will be a letdown after the 4-10 run. But this one is really a stinker.

13. Grayhawk Raptor (Scottsdale, AZ), unforgiving par 3 - Just a beast. Problem is there is no room for error. If you don't get it all the way up on top to the green, you're either in a hugely deep bunker or coming all the way back down to the bottom of the hill. No room long, either.

14. Rim Club (Payson, AZ) - An alternate fairway hole where neither option seems to offer an interesting benefit.

15. Murphy Creek (Aurora, CO), Out of character par 5 with wrapping around a man-made lake

16. Golf Club at Estrella (Goodyear, AZ) - Just a brutal hole for all but the best players. long, uphill, and sometimes requiring three forced carries.

17. Ventana Canyon Mountain (Tucson, AZ), uphill par 4 - Uphill and very tight. One mesquite tree well-placed on a desert course makes an interesting hazard. This hole is choked by them.

18. Spyglass Hill (CA), par 4 - The least interesting hole on the course. Would certainly be much less offensive if it weren't the last.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matthew, thanks.  It is nice to get confirmation on the 12th at Pebble.  I have not played there but learned to hate the hole watching the Crosby.  I will give you credit for that hole on the current final list given that I do not want to use the 15th at Murphy Creek.  Is that where the houses also come into play?  note:  I always consider that an architect did a fine job at a housing course if they sold lots of houses.

[Alex Miller]

1. Los Verdes
2. Rancho
3. Palos Verdes CC
4. LACC North
5. Pacific Dunes
6. Ko'Olau
7. Rustic Canyon
8. Bandon Dunes
9. Old Macdonald
10. Bandon Trails
11. Wilshire
12. CPC
13. Pinehurst #2
14. Pine Needles
15. Stone Eagle
16. Riviera
17. Pasatiempo
18. Valley Club

[Matthew Petersen]

Matthew, thanks.  It is nice to get confirmation on the 12th at Pebble.  I have not played there but learned to hate the hole watching the Crosby.  I will give you credit for that hole on the current final list given that I do not want to use the 15th at Murphy Creek.  Is that where the houses also come into play?  note:  I always consider that an architect did a fine job at a housing course if they sold lots of houses.

I haven't played MC since they started adding houses, but that stretch of holes on the back 9 with all the fake lakes were out of place regardless.

12 at Pebble is really a weak hole. What's odd is it doesn't have to be. It's a nice slightly downhill little spot of land. I mean, it's never going to be #7, but you could build an interesting hole there.

[Paul OConnor]

John,
Not an easy list to compile.

1. Garden City
2. Honors Club
3. Butler National
4. Flint Hills
5. Long Cove
6. Whistling Straights
7. Kingsley Club
8. Sebonac
9. Harbor Town

10. Lost Dunes
11. Arcadia Bluffs
12. Erin Hills
13. Shoreacres
14. Bandon Trails
15. Cog Hill
16. Rich Harvest
17. Crystal Downs
18. Medinah #3

Hopefully I've offended everyone.