[Josh Tarble]

Revised best worst list with the added bonus of a selection for the range:

Range.  Garden City

1. Garden City
2. Riviera
3. Cuscowilla
4. LACC North
5. Congressional
6. Ballyneal
7. Kingsley Clib
8. Victoria National
9. Sand Hills

10. Pasatiempo
11. Bandon Trails
12. Dismal River New
13. Mountain Lake
14. Deal
15. Yale
16. Yeamans Hall
17. Old Macdonald
18. Augusta National

I gotta say, worst range I've ever seen is at East Lake.  There is a 100 yard pond to begin the range.

And one I'd throw into your list is #12 at Muirfield Village.  I'm not sure even an above average player could play it consistently well.

Also, this has to be one of my favorite threads in a long while.

[Paul OConnor]

Maybe some of the Kingsley butt boys could figure out how to make this one work. 

Seems like if you took the trees out, drives would just keep going left into the gunk further down the hill, leaving an even blinder approach.  I'd like to see a little more room out to the right where the ball might rest, maybe a little fairway deck where you could catch a glimpse of the target, and give it a go at the green.  There's just so much slope to the left it doesn't seem like you could hold a ball up there.

[Paul OConnor]

No range can be worse than Shoreacres.  It's like hitting balls under the L tracks.

[Michael George]

CJ:

I was so impressed by the Doak course (or whatever name you come up with), I think you might have a situation where John just had to find his "least favorite".   While most comment about the finishing holes (14-18), I think the loop between 3-7 is the best architectural feature of the course.  I cannot imagine how much fun the 5th Major will be within that loop as there is a social component to it that will be great for tournaments.  When you take those holes out of the equation, not much left to choose from.

Maybe if you would have gone with Tiger, there wouldn't be any holes 

Honestly, I can tell you from my tour of the course last summer, I don't think you will have to worry about too many criticisms....so long as your golf carts don't burn my ass as much as your Polaris  
 

[Eric Smith]

Kavanaugh is basing his lack of love for the 12th on outside factors. Namely, CJ telling him after we played it that TD had looked at a really short par 3 just down the hill behind 12 green, where a great natural green sits, begging you to hit a wedge to it. CJ then mentioned now that it wasn't a part of the golf course, he was considering making it an "in-round" practice hole or some nonsense. It really burned John up to hear this and put him in a bad mood for a few minutes, at least until we rounded the bend on 13.

[Michael George]

Maybe that should be a thread.  What you did to get under John's skin? 

All I did was put on some soothing music per the request of Pro Shop and his boys from Victoria National 

[Anders Rytter]

In general, I think that if you find two good par fives back to back (however rare that may be) you should build them. Obviously bad results will come of forcing them onto the terrain just for the sake of being "different" or something, and it probably is best, for the sake of variety, to go with something else when the opportunity presents itself. That being said, you could certainly have two holes of, say, 600 yards and 490 yards, both of which could be called par 5s, without losing variety. So I guess I would say it just depends.

Doesn't Cypress have back to back 5s? I'm unfortunately not familiar with the course, but does anybody know how well it works there?

I am not likely to admire a 600 yard hole.  On principle, I disagree with the concept.  I can see back to back par 5s working if heading in opposite directions where wind is big factor.  Its not ideal, but at least some thrill can be had for going at a green 500 yards away in 2, but unable to reach a 475 green in two, but on any given day one is reachable and the other is not.  Often times, back to backers are a way of chewing up less desirable land - a necessary evil in the old days or when on a build budget these days - it would seem.  All in all, back to back par 5s should probably be the one thing an archie should do all he can to avoid.  

Ciao

How about 9th-10th on Portrush Dunluce? concecutive par 5 in almost same direction.

Anders

I like both greensites (as I do for practically every hole on the Dunluce), but I don't care for either drive.  When taking the 7th into consideration as well, I am not sure what this three hole stretch brings to the table; for me this is the weakest part of the course.  What do you think?

Ciao

I found 17-18 the least interesting part of Portrush Dunluce. I sure wouldn't expect 9-10 to be on a worst hole list.

[Eric Smith]

Maybe that should be a thread.  What you did to get under John's skin?  

All I did was put on some soothing music per the request of Pro Shop and his boys from Victoria National  

He lets out the longest deepest sigh I have ever heard. It really used to make me uncomfortable when he did it, but now I know it's only just a condition.

First time I met him, at Victoria National, we meet in the pro shop, then head to the locker room. He holds the door open for me, but I insist he go ahead and I reach to hold the door for him. ***BIG SIGH***

Felt like I was in trouble with my Dad or something.

[John Kavanaugh]

Kavanaugh is basing his lack of love for the 12th on outside factors. Namely, CJ telling him after we played it that TD had looked at a really short par 3 just down the hill behind 12 green, where a great natural green sits, begging you to hit a wedge to it. CJ then mentioned now that it wasn't a part of the golf course, he was considering making it an "in-round" practice hole or some nonsense. It really burned John up to hear this and put him in a bad mood for a few minutes, at least until we rounded the bend on 13.

I just hate to see golfers hit balls into undisturbed areas outside the boundaries of the course for their own selfish pleasures.  Plus the thought of seeing empty shag bags and broken tees laying around like discarded trash against the backdrop of that landscape does sicken me.  I'm still worried about that ball you hit up the Buffalo Run.  I think those of us who are lucky enough to be stewards of the Sand Hills need to take our responsibilities towards the ecosystems not disturbed by our golf courses very seriously.  Golf balls are ugly indestructible pieces of trash when not in play and should be removed and properly disposed of in no different manner than any other waste.  No one of us would toss our beer cans with the same reckless abandon.   

[Nigel Islam]

Revised best worst list with the added bonus of a selection for the range:

Range.  Garden City

1. Garden City
2. Riviera
3. Cuscowilla
4. LACC North
5. Congressional
6. Ballyneal
7. Kingsley Clib
8. Victoria National
9. Sand Hills

10. Pasatiempo
11. Bandon Trails
12. Dismal River New
13. Mountain Lake
14. Deal
15. Yale
16. Yeamans Hall
17. Old Macdonald
18. Augusta National

I gotta say, worst range I've ever seen is at East Lake.  There is a 100 yard pond to begin the range.

And one I'd throw into your list is #12 at Muirfield Village.  I'm not sure even an above average player could play it consistently well.

Also, this has to be one of my favorite threads in a long while.

Bethpage's range is poor. Bad angles. Uneven hitting areas. Not saying its the worst, but needs to be on this list. Also Pebble's range is much much worse than Victoria's

[Matthew Petersen]

Revised best worst list with the added bonus of a selection for the range:

Range.  Garden City

1. Garden City
2. Riviera
3. Cuscowilla
4. LACC North
5. Congressional
6. Ballyneal
7. Kingsley Clib
8. Victoria National
9. Sand Hills

10. Pasatiempo
11. Bandon Trails
12. Dismal River New
13. Mountain Lake
14. Deal
15. Yale
16. Yeamans Hall
17. Old Macdonald
18. Augusta National

I gotta say, worst range I've ever seen is at East Lake.  There is a 100 yard pond to begin the range.

And one I'd throw into your list is #12 at Muirfield Village.  I'm not sure even an above average player could play it consistently well.

Also, this has to be one of my favorite threads in a long while.

Bethpage's range is poor. Bad angles. Uneven hitting areas. Not saying its the worst, but needs to be on this list. Also Pebble's range is much much worse than Victoria's

Pebble range came to mind for me as well. You have to take a van to get to that pathetic excuse for a range?

[Nigel Islam]

Pebble's range is like the one in Tin Cup where they are all so bunched together and Roy has the shanks.

[Sam Morrow]

I guess I know nothing, when CJ was driving Cory and I around the Doak course I think I said 12 was the best hole.

[John Kavanaugh]

And the #13 is a no-brainer:  13 at Rich Harvest.  AstroTurf tee!  But that's not all:  Ridiculous landing area.  Stupid tree nurseries everywhere.  Dumb mounds for no reason.  Bad green. 

John, it gets no worse than #13 at Rich Harvest.   It is a must-have on your list. 

Problem is, it's a privilege to be on this list.  Mountain Lake is at least topical. Putting Rich Harvest on wouldn't be fair to the other fine courses currently represented.

[Greg Tallman]

1. Grandfather G&CC (lay up area was forced onto the land) / Either opener at Puerto Los Cabos
5. Muirfield Village (Bizarre tee shot)
6. Mid Ocean Club (Very strange par 3)
7. Long Cove (think it is 7 - the par 5 with sidehill benched green?)
9. Querencia GC (better suited for ski slope... layup with anything from putter to 5 iron and end up in the same spot)
10. Diamante (just doesn't work for me)
16. Old White (current iteration)
18. Laurel Valley

[Michael George]

John - I agree fully.  The idea of this thread is to look at your favorite golf courses and try and identify the hole that you dislike or at least like the least.  It makes you critically examine courses that you love.

I am enjoying John's list because he is trying his best to include one course from each of GCA's most beloved courses.  I think he should have a hole from Dismal Nicklaus instead of Dismal Doak, as most have not played Dismal Doak yet, but I enjoy the effort.  My guess is Congressional and LACC/Riviera are next to fall off ---- if he can find a good hole on one of the omitted courses - hey, you haven't included Pinehurst #2 (for Ran), Crystal Downs (for Tom Doak), Cabot Links (for Ben), Olympia Fields (for the Chicago group) or other favorites yet

[Paul OConnor]

John - I agree fully.  The idea of this thread is to look at your favorite golf courses and try and identify the hole that you dislike or at least like the least.  It makes you critically examine courses that you love.

I am enjoying John's list because he is trying his best to include one course from each of GCA's most beloved courses.  I think he should have a hole from Dismal Nicklaus instead of Dismal Doak, as most have not played Dismal Doak yet, but I enjoy the effort.  My guess is Congressional and LACC/Riviera are next to fall off ---- if he can find a good hole on one of the omitted courses - hey, you haven't included Pinehurst #2 (for Ran), Crystal Downs (for Tom Doak), Cabot Links (for Ben), Olympia Fields (for the Chicago group) or other favorites yet

I nominated Crystal Downs #17, which I thought was an outstanding candidate.  I never played Old Mac, so maybe it's worse.  Hard to imagine.

For Olympia Fields North, it would have to be #6, re-done downhill par three.  Easily the worst hole on the course.  But probably not as bad as Ballyneal #6.

[Jason Thurman]

I haven't played nearly enough great courses for this. I tried to limit to one hole per course and force myself to pick a hole from most of my Top 25 courses. I also only picked holes that I've actually played. Admittedly, I really like one or two of the holes below but they are all my least favorite on their course.

1. Longaberger
2. CommonGround
3. Lawsonia
4. Wild Horse
5. Prairie Club - Dunes
6. Pine Needles
7. Champion Trace
8. Erin Hills
9. Tobacco Road
10. Dormie Club
11. Prairie Club - Pines
12. Pebble Beach
13. Idle Hour
14. Shepherd's Hollow
15. Pinehurst No. 2
16. The Harvester
17. The Trophy Club
18. University Ridge

[Brian Colbert]

I'd just like to say that 18 at Cherry Hills is the worst finishing hole that I've ever seen on any course. It belongs in this list ahead of Augusta National. It feels impossible to hit the fairway without your ball rolling into the water when you're standing on the tee.

[Doug Wright]

I'd just like to say that 18 at Cherry Hills is the worst finishing hole that I've ever seen on any course. It belongs in this list ahead of Augusta National. It feels impossible to hit the fairway without your ball rolling into the water when you're standing on the tee.

Brian, there's room on that hole--your caddy just didn't give you the right line...

#18 on Bandon Dunes is terrible. Perhaps Bandon Trails #18 will no longer give it a run for worst 18th at the resort. 

[Bill McKinley]

Thought I would revive this thread. It definitely invites some good conversation! I went with the method of using the same courses that I used in my favorite holes thread.

Here we go...

1. Muirfield - way too narrow for an opener on that golf course.
2. Canterbury - some tree work needed in landing area left side. Also there's only 1 real hole location on the green
3. Camargo - awkward hole. Either not short enough or not long enough
4. Carnoustie - pretty blah hole despite the double green it shares with the "spectacles" hole
5. LACC North - this and #14 at LA are almost identical. Tough choice but had to put one on there
6. Turnberry Alisa - I expected more
7. Pinehurst #2 - not enough of a risk reward tee shot for such a sharp dogleg, might be better post-renovation though
8. Seminole - seemed really out of place
9. TOC - like others have said. Pretty bland from start to finish
10. Bethpage Black - way too much Rees Jones here. Long and straight with exceedingly deep green side bunkers
11. Oakmont - would have chose #16 but I had MV's 16th needs to be on the list more
12. Riviera - apart from the Bogart tree, I wasn't impressed.
13. Fox Chapel - sharp dogleg right that is easily the 18th best hole on this course
14. Merion East - just can't get over the ridiculous mound to the left of the green.
15. Yeamans Hall - relatively uninteresting, especially when sandwiched in between 14, 16, 17
16. Muirfield Village - my easiest choice
17. Kingsbarns - not too sure what's wrong with it, but it wasn't one of my favorites and needed something here. 11 would be my 1st choice
18. Canton Brookside - Not a fan of the back to back par 5 finish. I think this hole would be much better as a 400 yard par 4 with a bigger green

A tough exercise for sure but a fun one nonetheless. Now tell me why I'm wrong 

[Jud_T]

Jason,

What's not to like about the third at Lawsonia?  Very cool green IMO...

[John Kavanaugh]

Thought I would revive this thread. It definitely invites some good conversation! I went with the method of using the same courses that I used in my favorite holes thread.

Here we go...

1. Muirfield - way too narrow for an opener on that golf course.
2. Canterbury - some tree work needed in landing area left side. Also there's only 1 real hole location on the green
3. Camargo - awkward hole. Either not short enough or not long enough
4. Carnoustie - pretty blah hole despite the double green it shares with the "spectacles" hole
5. LACC North - this and #14 at LA are almost identical. Tough choice but had to put one on there
6. Turnberry Alisa - I expected more
7. Pinehurst #2 - not enough of a risk reward tee shot for such a sharp dogleg, might be better post-renovation though
8. Seminole - seemed really out of place
9. TOC - like others have said. Pretty bland from start to finish
10. Bethpage Black - way too much Rees Jones here. Long and straight with exceedingly deep green side bunkers
11. Oakmont - would have chose #16 but I had MV's 16th needs to be on the list more
12. Riviera - apart from the Bogart tree, I wasn't impressed.
13. Fox Chapel - sharp dogleg right that is easily the 18th best hole on this course
14. Merion East - just can't get over the ridiculous mound to the left of the green.
15. Yeamans Hall - relatively uninteresting, especially when sandwiched in between 14, 16, 17
16. Muirfield Village - my easiest choice
17. Kingsbarns - not too sure what's wrong with it, but it wasn't one of my favorites and needed something here. 11 would be my 1st choice
18. Canton Brookside - Not a fan of the back to back par 5 finish. I think this hole would be much better as a 400 yard par 4 with a bigger green

A tough exercise for sure but a fun one nonetheless. Now tell me why I'm wrong 

Bill,

I would argue with the 12th at Riviera.  It is my favorite long par 4 on the course.  If I don't catch a great drive I am laying up in front of the barranca.  I think a short hitter has a good chance beating a better golfer by making it a three shot hole.  A bogey 5 is pretty solid.

[Bill McKinley]

John,

How is it a long par 4? It's 410 from the back tees and 367 from the member tees. That makes it one of the shorter par 4s on the course. I realize that there is another tee back there at 475 or something but its not even on the card and its probably only used during the Tour event. And certainly your point about it being a hole where the short hitter can contend with the longer hitter is moot because the short hitter is certainly not playing that hole from 475.

[Jason Thurman]

Jason,

What's not to like about the third at Lawsonia?  Very cool green IMO...

The drive is reverse-strategy. The best angle of approach is from the left side of the fairway, while the bunker guards the right side. It's also a pretty mundane bit of terrain, and while the green is interesting, it feels a bit overdone to me. It's not a bad hole really, but it doesn't do much for me and really pales next to the fantastic stretch that follows it.

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