[Howard Riefs]

The current Golfweek has a very nice feature on Streamsong that covers the project origin and initial success.

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/16/streamsong-mining-golf-gold-central-florida/


Also included are Brad Klein's rater notebook articles on both Red and Blue courses. Cue the comparisons:

Blue:  http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/16/raters-notebook-streamsong-blue-course/

Red:  http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/16/raters-notebook-streamsong-red-course/

[John Kavanaugh]

Well this should zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz stimulate a zzzzzzzzzzzz lot of zzzzzzzzzzzzzz discussion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

I respect Brad Klein's analytic abilities, and he's indicating that both courses good enough to be considered top 100.

That said, the previous write up raises a point that a few have raised, namely the location and it's ability to attract golfers.

With Tampa and Orlando an hour's ride away and a modern 218 room hotel, surely the infrastructure exists to support significant visitors.  The "press" that the courses have been enjoying is almost unprecedented amongst new courses.

One can only hope that the resort gains in popularity and play.

It would seem to be the ideal location for a USGA event in the fall.

[John Kavanaugh]

Pat,

My point was that after weeks and endless threads about the methods used in ranking courses by Golf Digest this would fall on deaf ears.  No one will dare challenge Brad because if they are not already Golfweek raters they do not want to jeopardize that chance.  Tom Doak said it best on the other thread that Brad has no business telling his people his exact to the tenth decimal point where he wants the courses to fall.  It is a disgusting manipulative effort to control his people that has worked time and time again.  Good for Brad, we get it, a course in Florida can only be so good.

I saw it in person at Victoria National, read it here with Ballyhack and watched from afar as Rustic Canyon were all dragged down.  This is only act 1 in his little marionette show.  Watch your strings boys but it could be worse, you could be breech.  I'd just love to know what they did or didn't do to get on Brad's wrong side.

When there are so few courses being built any critic who rounds his scores down for those with the courage to promote the sport are simply clueless in what their role is in promoting the game.  Lord knows he pumped up Trump.  Wonder why?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

So should Brad not write articles for "Golfweek"  ?

I think Brad is very bright and has a good command regarding GCA.

Can and will other raters be influenced ?  Sure, but will a rater who plays Shinnecock be influenced by the others who rated before him ?  Sure

So what's the harm ?

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB,

So should Brad not write articles for "Golfweek"  ?

I think Brad is very bright and has a good command regarding GCA.

Can and will other raters be influenced ?  Sure, but will a rater who plays Shinnecock be influenced by the others who rated before him ?  Sure

So what's the harm ?

The harm is in being lame. Staging the courses right in the middle of the top 100 modern is effortless and vanilla. In a word zzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

I'm not prepared to make any assessment until I play them.

From what's been said, by those who have played them, is that they're very good with the nod going to Tom Doak's course.
It seems within the context of comments that the courses are outstanding and that Brad's reviews are on target.
How can you fault anyone for coming to agreement on the merits of the courses ?

[Rob Rigg]

I have not looked at one of these "notebook" articles before - What does Landscape and Tree Management have to do with anything?

Seems like that is where both courses received lower marks than average, or inline with their lowest, and that helped "drag" both of them down.

Where do other "destination" public courses rank in the notebook pantheon? eg) BD, PD, Trails, OM, Whistling Straits, P #2, etc.?

Based on the number of snowbirds in FL, especially on the west coast, I'd imagine SS will get a lot of play during the winter. Especially when the hotel/spa is finished - Beautiful setting, great amenities for the casual golfer, "Strong Top 100 Contenders" - positive stuff.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have not looked at one of these "notebook" articles before - What does Landscape and Tree Management have to do with anything?

Some course have allowed tree growth to intrude into the playing corridors, affecting play.
Other course engaged in indiscriminate tree planting that intruded into the playing corridors affecting play, contrary to the architects original intent.

Seems like that is where both courses received lower marks than average, or inline with their lowest, and that helped "drag" both of them down.

Where do other "destination" public courses rank in the notebook pantheon? eg) BD, PD, Trails, OM, Whistling Straits, P #2, etc.?

Based on the number of snowbirds in FL, especially on the west coast, I'd imagine SS will get a lot of play during the winter. Especially when the hotel/spa is finished - Beautiful setting, great amenities for the casual golfer, "Strong Top 100 Contenders" - positive stuff.
It's still relatively remote, not in a location where snowbirds flock, so marketing and positive reviews will be critical to it's success.

[Scott Weersing]

JakaB,

So should Brad not write articles for "Golfweek"  ?

I think Brad is very bright and has a good command regarding GCA.

Can and will other raters be influenced ?  Sure, but will a rater who plays Shinnecock be influenced by the others who rated before him ?  Sure

So what's the harm ?

The harm is in being lame. Staging the courses right in the middle of the top 100 modern is effortless and vanilla. In a word zzzzzzzzzzzz.

I agree with John that saying where they could rank is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I think they get pushed up higher in the rankings because they are new courses and they are being compared to other courses in Florida. Of course they are better than all but a handful of courses in Florida but so what?

If the resort owneres really wanted to chase course rankings, then it would design a composite course and then ask Golf Digest to rank it.
(I don't believe in composite course rankings, ie, Royal Melbourne.)

[Scott Warren]

Scott Weersing,

Have you played RM Composite?

What about it makes it not a real golf course?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

So should Brad not write articles for "Golfweek"  ?

I think Brad is very bright and has a good command regarding GCA.

Can and will other raters be influenced ?  Sure, but will a rater who plays Shinnecock be influenced by the others who rated before him ?  Sure

So what's the harm ?

The harm is in being lame. Staging the courses right in the middle of the top 100 modern is effortless and vanilla. In a word zzzzzzzzzzzz.

I agree with John that saying where they could rank is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I think they get pushed up higher in the rankings because they are new courses and they are being compared to other courses in Florida. Of course they are better than all but a handful of courses in Florida but so what?

If the resort owneres really wanted to chase course rankings, then it would design a composite course and then ask Golf Digest to rank it.
(I don't believe in composite course rankings, ie, Royal Melbourne.)

Scott,

Shirley you can't be serious ?

Now you think the key to rankings for a resort is to have two separate, extremely talented golf course architects design separate courses with their  focus being on a composite course that will catapult them higher in the rankings z ?  ?  ?

As to new courses making a splash in the rankings, that seems to be an established pattern for decades

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't understand how anyone can say this is a positive review when it introduces theses courses just barely as top 50 modern in Golfweek.  That is far too low to impact the discriminating traveler at the advertised price point.  If things follow suit and the very predictable Golfweek trend plays out the courses will debut around 40-50 modern and slide down to a comfortable top 75 modern in a few years.  Those are $150 prime time numbers.

I have not seen the course so Brad's review may be correct, I just do not see it as a positive for the resort.

[Jud_T]

Any new course ranking is suspect, not just in Golfweek.  As we know, typically the bias is to overrate them initially due to excitement and hype, and we only know their true merit 5-10 years down the road.  Occasionally, however, courses grind higher over time as the cream rises to the top.  Either they were kept down initially for a variety of reasons, and/or they're simply that good.  That could well be the case here.  I give Brad credit for at least trying to place them initially.  I have no problem with telling him he's full of it, but I haven't seen SS yet and I rarely find him way off the mark relative to my own opinion (even if he does have Kingsley 15 spots too low  ).  John brings up a valid point however relative to their price point.  No ocean views in the middle of Nowhere, Florida and rankings in the South 40 may mean there's a longer lead time on being in the black.  Good news is these guys have deep pockets.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jud,

Nice poker face.  How giddy were you to see Brad rank both of these courses below Kingsley?

I did just check the weather for this week in both Kiawah and Tampa.  Tampa is just a smudge better.  Now Vegas, that is another story.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't understand how anyone can say this is a positive review when it introduces theses courses just barely as top 50 modern in Golfweek.  That is far too low to impact the discriminating traveler at the advertised price point.  If things follow suit and the very predictable Golfweek trend plays out the courses will debut around 40-50 modern and slide down to a comfortable top 75 modern in a few years.  Those are $150 prime time numbers.

I have not seen the course so Brad's review may be correct, I just do not see it as a positive for the resort.


JakaB,

So you think that Trump got it right in Scotland with his course being declared sensational, versus the Blue and the Red being declared Top 100 ?  ?  ? 

[John Kavanaugh]

Pat,

In all seriousness top 100 modern is not top 100.  It is top 100 courses built since 1960.  If I were to base my travels on Brad's reviews I would not choose Streamsong as a winter destination for a golf trip.  Assuming I have no connections to play private courses I would take Vegas for a trip with my buddies and never leave Disney if with my family.  Speaking of Trump, why couldn't Brad have pushed his scores closer to what he gave Trump International?  Where would have the harm been in an extra quarter point given the state of the golf economy.  I think he should promote investment and construction at every opportunity.

[Jud_T]

Jud,

Nice poker face.  How giddy were you to see Brad rank both of these courses below Kingsley?

I did just check the weather for this week in both Kiawah and Tampa.  Tampa is just a smudge better.  Now Vegas, that is another story.

I'd be happy to have them ranked above Kingsley as long as it was deserved.  That would mean that they are in fact that good and are a phenomenal addition to a fairly mediocre winter golf getaway resort market.  Besides even I would rather spend the winter in Streamsong than Kingsley...

[Pete Buczkowski]

Agree thought it read as a tempered unflattering review, especially of the Blue.  Couldn't understand how it gets 8+ in all the key categories except par 5 memorability yet scores a 7.3 overall.  There are a couple of stretches that are truly one-off and outstanding - #4-7 on each course is as good as golf gets - yet that wasn't mentioned.  IMO the conditioning could not improve, with my only slight quibble that the green surrounds could be closer to the speed of the greeens.  It will be a tough feat to get it playing any better than it does right now.  

I'm really interested to see how the resort fares as time goes on...ie Will it be even 25% full in the summer.  The Disney courses are plenty full in winter but basically empty in the summer even though the hotel occupancy is higher.  And that is with a free 5-10 minute cab ride from the resort, not a 75 minute rental car ride.  There are just so many other options throughout the US in the summer while Florida enjoys a captive winter audience. 

The ocean influences more than just golf course rankings, it's also a big part of what draws golfers.  I'd much rather play at SS than say Kiawah, but I could never convince my local friends to fork over $200 to play SS...It's a much easier sell to casual golfers when it's on the ocean.

[Jim Colton]

Let's look at some history of past rater's notebooks and how close the subsequent panelist scores were to Brad's initial assessment. It doesn't look like there is much correlation, though psychologically you'd think that at least some panelists would be motivated to conform to avoid the risk of being an ex-panelist. Golf Digest seems to have this issue as well with its Dean Knuth outlier grades.


Chambers Bay (Jun 2007): 8.5-9.0
http://golfweek.com/news/2007/jun/16/raters-notebook-chambers-bay/?RatersNotebook
"A stunning technical achievement, one that appears entirely natural, Chambers Bay clearly rates among Golfweek’s Best top 50 Modern Courses (post 1960). It is a fitting culmination to Robert Trent Jones Jr.’s design career, as well as an impressive achievement for design associates Bruce Charlton and Jay Blasi."

22. Chambers Bay Golf Club 7.76
(25, d) University Place, Wash.
2007, Robert Trent Jones Jr., Bruce Charlton


The Club at Irish Creek (Jan 2008) 7.0
http://golfweek.com/news/2008/jan/12/raters-notebook-irish-creek/?RatersNotebook
"A strong candidate for Golfweek’s Best Top 100 Modern status and clearly the best work produced by Love Golf Design."

200. (NR) The GC at Irish Creek
Kannapolis, N.C., 2007
Davis Love III
Real Estate, Private
6.45


Fallen Oak 8.5
http://golfweek.com/news/2009/jul/11/raters-notebook-fallen-oak/?RatersNotebook
"Fallen Oak debuted on the 2009 Golfweek’s Best modern list at No. 55 and arguably is underrated there; it certainly is among the top 3 of the 40-plus Fazio courses I’ve ever played."

48. Fallen Oak Golf Club 7.30 (it had 7.03 in 2009)
(45, r) Saucier, Miss.
2006, Tom Fazio


TPC San Antonio (Nov 2009) 6.5
http://golfweek.com/news/2009/nov/30/raters-notebook-tpc-san-antonio/?RatersNotebook
"One of Norman’s best designs in terms of overall playability and among the least contrived of the TPC network courses. Deserves a serious rating among top 100 resort courses."

57 (Best Resort). TPC San Antonio (AT&T Oaks)
San Antonio, Texas, 2010
Greg Norman
Avg. rating: 6.14


Mayakoba (Mar-2010) 8
http://golfweek.com/news/2010/mar/04/whole-new-yucatan/?RatersNotebook
"There’s a reason the Golfweek’s Best rating team voted Mayakoba’s El Camaleon the No. 7 layout in all of the Caribbean and Mexico. It’s far and away the most compelling and most relaxing of the 17 Norman-designed courses I’ve played."

19 (Caribbean/Mexico). Mayakoba (El Camaleon) [was 7th, 12th and 20th in 2010-2012 respectively]
Maya Riviera, Mexico, 2006
Greg Norman
Avg. rating: 6.63


Corales (Apr-2010) 8
http://golfweek.com/news/2010/apr/05/corales-golf-club-overwhelms-senses/?RatersNotebook
"The result is a fanciful collaboration of color, texture and natural landforms in a light-saturated Impressionist idiom that is unlike anything else in the Caribbean."

12 (Caribbean/Mexico). Corales Golf Club [was 6th and 9th 20th in 2010-2011 respectively]
Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, 2010
Tom Fazio
Avg. rating: 6.92


The Patriot (Jun-2010) 8
http://golfweek.com/news/2010/jun/15/raters-notebook-patriot-golf-club/?RatersNotebook
"Each hole is memorable yet integrated compositionally. It all makes for a moving experience symbolically as well as a fine test of golf. A strong contender for top-100 status on Golfweek’s Best Modern list."

42. Patriot Golf Club 7.34
(48, p) Owasso, Okla.
2010, Robert Trent Jones Jr.


Dove Mountain (Feb-2009) 6
http://golfweek.com/news/2009/feb/14/raters-notebook-dove-mountain/?RatersNotebook
"Visually stunning and enjoyable, as long as you don’t care about greens in regulation or putting stats."

38 (Resort). Ritz-Carlton GC at Dove Mountain (Saguaro & Tortolita)
Marana, Ariz., 2009
Jack Nicklaus
Avg. rating: 6.41


Royal Isabela (May-2011)
http://golfweek.com/news/2011/may/09/raters-notebook-royal-isabela/?RatersNotebook
"Luxurious, fun and weirdly compelling despite some modest flaws, Royal Isabela surely merits inclusion in the middle of Golfweek’s Best list of the top 50 courses in the Caribbean and Mexico."

39. Royal Isabela
Isabela, Puerto Rico, 2011
David Pfaff
Avg. rating: 5.90



Dismal River (Sep-2011) 6.6
http://golfweek.com/news/2011/sep/22/raters-notebook-dismal-river-mullen-neb/?RatersNotebook
"Close to a top 100; certainly a top 200 Modern course. With its brazen feature work and starkly angular demands, it’s best thought of as Nicklaus’ version of Tobacco Road. The macho culture and furnishing of the clubhouse make Dismal River seem like a little frat house on the prairie – and many will love that."

196. (NR) Dismal River Club
Mullen, Neb., 2006
Jack Nicklaus
Private
6.46


Dormie Club (Dec-2011) 7.5
http://golfweek.com/news/2011/dec/01/dormie-club-worth-playing-nc-sandhills/?RatersNotebook
Immediately falls in behind Pinehurst No. 2, and with Pine Needles and Tobacco Road, as among the area courses worth visiting and replaying.

78. *Dormie Club 7.02
(NR, p) West End, N.C.
2010, Bill Coore, Ben Crenshaw


Others:
Golf at Harbor Shores 5.0
Waldorf-Astoria 5.5
Coyote Springs 6.0
Old American 6.5

[Greg Taylor]

^ In one word, "calibration" or lack thereof...

[Jud_T]

Jim,

Aside from his raw score they seem to generally fall in line very nicely with the general area of the rankings that he describes in the text.  I hate to admit it, but Kavanaugh might be on to something here.  Of course if it really is primarily a reflection of Brad's tastes, maybe that's why I like the list so much.  Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the soup. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

In all seriousness top 100 modern is not top 100.  It is top 100 courses built since 1960. 

But that's "Golfweek's" format.
Brad can't state that they're a top 100 classic course, can he ?


If I were to base my travels on Brad's reviews I would not choose Streamsong as a winter destination for a golf trip. 

I'd strongly disagree.
Not one, but two top 100 courses.
Add that to the reviews that came in PRIOR to Brad's reviews.
When you collectivize the opinions it speak pretty highly to both courses.

Assuming I have no connections to play private courses I would take Vegas for a trip with my buddies and never leave Disney if with my family.

Then, as Gib says, you're looking for pussy and gambling, because you're certainly not looking for great golf in Las Vegas.
And, you've probably been to Las Vegas dozen's of times.
In golf as in women, "strange" can be very good 

Speaking of Trump, why couldn't Brad have pushed his scores closer to what he gave Trump International? 

You'd have to ask Brad

Where would have the harm been in an extra quarter point given the state of the golf economy. 
I think he should promote investment and construction at every opportunity.

To what degree ?

Should he compromise his integrity in order to schill for new development ?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you Jim
Cool to see how many courses are better than Blue or Red...   
Or at least routed better than the Blue 
Cheers

[Jason Thurman]

What are the Top 10 public/resort golf destinations in the US, if we base it on value, quality of courses, number of options, and location? Is Streamsong a contender? Is it already on the list? If not, why?

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