would grounding the club in a bunker really help to play better bunker shot ?

[Philippe Binette]

and if so, how?

It is an essential question, I doubt it's ever been debated

[Connor Dougherty]

I would think only for testing the surface. I've had a few occasions where it seems as though the sand is harder/softer than digging in my feet indicated.

I'd love to hear comments from others though

[David_Tepper]

Philippe -

Being able to sole your club in a bunker gives one a chance to feel how much sand is likely to be under the ball and possibly how hard the dirt is below the sand. That would be a huge advantage for bunker play.

DT
 

[Philippe Binette]

really, a huge advantage

I feel it would be one more data that would mess up my mind...

and trust me, I'm a really good bunker player who was raised on a course where no bunker is the same... from wet hardpan to soft fluffy sand in the same round...

[Philippe Binette]

I mean: Ok the sand is firm, so what, you still have to execute...

even if you could draw a line with your club behind the ball to tell you where to hit thee sand, would it help I'm not sure it would

[Patrick_Mucci]

YES

and if so, how?


By  grounding the club you essentially "build" a preferable lie, one that allows for easier extraction.

It is an essential question, I doubt it's ever been debated

It has been debated on this site, I just can't recall the exact time frame

[John Ezekowitz]

Phillipe,

Aside from the physical advantage question, there is a psychological advantage of grounding the club. The golfer plays the vast majority of his shots with the club starting soled on the ground. The fact that he or she cannot do so in a bunker is disconcerting. I think the return to the routine would be an advantage.

[David Harshbarger]

Phillippe!

Why don't you field test the question?  

From watching my kids do it, it seems to screw with the takeaway into the backswing.  But maybe in more skilled hands that's not a big deal.

But as has often been commented here, you don't actually have by to play the rule book unless, you know, you have to.

Dave

[Scott Warren]

If the ball had a rise behind it or was plugged at all, grounding the club would allow you to improve the lie on the start of the backswing.

Bunkers should be hazards, so I like the inconsistent conditions you can expect.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Grounding the club would really help with a shot from a fairway bunker.  It would be really easy to go from a decent lie to a great lie in seconds.

[jvisser]

At the last European Tour Rules Conference dec. 2012, I brought up this issue and specifically asked the referees who had attended
the recent USPGA events (at Kiawah 2012 all sand was through the green and in 2010 on Whistling Straits all sand was considered
to be a bunker) whether they saw an advantage for players to be able to ground the club whilst the ball lay in sand.

The answer was that all players basically stuck to their normal approach in a bunker and not grounding the club,
as this is obviously what they are trained to do. Personally, I think that moving a lot of sand on the backswing
could of course improve the lie, which would not be allowed by the rules even if grounding would be allowed,
as it occurs before the stroke and it would disrupt the backswing, which would in  general not improve the result
of the subsequent stroke in my opinion.

This testing of the condition of the bunkers has kept me occupied before and I have asked several pro golfers,
whether they would learn more by e.g. being allowed to rake at will before a stroke. Their response usually is
that it won't give them much more than what they can already learn by just walking in the bunker and taking
their stance.

All in all, I think that as long as the lie itself cannot be improved, which will remain the case, however much
you let the player test the bunker, overall the quality of bunker play will for the majority of the players not
improve at all. The quality of the bunkers is a different matter and a different thread...

Jan

[paul cowley]

Good response Jan.

I'm all for grounding the club in a bunker as long as you don't improve the lie before you swing....it's the same as not being able to break vegetation that impeeds your swing prior to initiating your stroke.

Once the swing begins you could move all the sand you want in either the backswing or the downswing without incurring a penalty...the same as you don't incur a penalty while brushing through vegetation during your swing.

[Andy Stamm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sCbkw4xQVEs#!

Jump to 5 minutes in that video. That's from a waste area in a playoff in 2004. I think the issue is more than just grounding the club. There are also loose impediments and penalty relief differences.

[A.G._Crockett]

Well, given that teeing the ball up used to be done with a small pile of sand, I'd have to say a loud, "YES!"

I press down slightly as I address the ball, and in effect the ball is at least somewhat teed up.  I can continue that until I get it just right, correct?

NOT grounding should be part of the penalty for hitting in a hazard to begin with, right?  A harder shot to execute, rewarding better players, right?

[Rick Shefchik]

When I'm in a sandy waste area I don't ground my club, even though the rules allow it. Too many years of playing by the rules out of bunkers.

[Tim Martin]

An emphatic YES.

[Jason Thurman]

No one else has mentioned that grounding the club in sand puts an imprint in the sand. One of the difficulties of sand play is hitting the correct distance behind the ball to blast the shot out with plenty of spin. If I can ground my club and put an imprint in the sand showing me exactly where to hit visually, it makes the shot much easier than trying to focus on the correct spot with no helping visual indicator.

[Doug Siebert]

Even in a perfect lie in a perfectly smooth bunker where you know exactly what condition the sand is it could help, simply because you then play it just like you play all other shots.  Unless you use the Nicklaus strategy of never actually grounding your club, having to hover your club above the ground induces an unusual tension in the arms and hands at address that does not exist during all other shots where you are able to ground the club.

Think about when you're on a lie in pine straw or elsewhere where the ball is in a precarious spot and you can't risk grounding your club.  Wouldn't those shots be easier in at least some small measure if you knew you wouldn't disturb it and could confidently ground your club and play it like a normal shot?

[Niall C]

Re improving your lie, it used to be said about a certain Spanish player who is no longer with us, that when his ball went into the rough, he always addressed it with his 3 wood irrespective of whether he had 100 yards or two hundred yards to go. Once he had spent a bit of time addressing the ball, he would then put the 3 wood away and decide what club he was actually going to play now that he could see the back of the ball better. I suspect that might be one reason why you're not allowed to ground your club in a bunker.

Niall

[Mark Pritchett]

Would not being able to ground the club in the fairway be a disadvantage? 

[Andy Stamm]

Re improving your lie, it used to be said about a certain Spanish player who is no longer with us, that when his ball went into the rough, he always addressed it with his 3 wood irrespective of whether he had 100 yards or two hundred yards to go. Once he had spent a bit of time addressing the ball, he would then put the 3 wood away and decide what club he was actually going to play now that he could see the back of the ball better. I suspect that might be one reason why you're not allowed to ground your club in a bunker.

Niall

I thought it was Jumbo Ozaki? Didn't Norman call him out on that?

[David Ober]

Yes, tremendously, but especially from FAIRWAY bunkers.

The reason is that by grounding the club, you can (slightly) push down sand that might intervene between the clubface and ball. Even if that's not your intent, it's not possible to "ground" a club in the sand and not move the sand at least a bit.

[Tom_Doak]

I've always presumed the real reason behind the Rule was to avoid having to make judgment calls about whether grounding the club in a hazard had had the effect of improving one's lie.  If you ground the club, you MIGHT improve the lie, and then how are you and your opponent going to police that?  If you don't ground the club, you can't improve the lie.  And with this Rule, by grounding the club you are being penalized as if you might have improved it.

[Steve Lang]

  I like Toms' reasoning on the rules..  and am quite amused that no one will admit to ever doing this dastardly deed.. even in practice, to calibrate???   

now from personal experience, its definitely an advantage, and I allways like to watch my opponent in a trap, just to see how things are going...

knowing where the leading edge is going to be on swing, after one takes a final stance, is priceless, and demands some calibration during practice of course, or should i say off course

[paul cowley]

Once again...help me with this...If you have a fried egg in a waste bunker or naturally sandy area, what are your options?

Can you improve the lie in any way?

Can you excavate and remove the sand from behind the ball before address to allow for better contact?
Can you compress the club down while grounding the club and then move some sand back during your takeaway in an attempt to improve your lie?

I don't think so.

So why the rakes and hazard lines?

Tom D...if you're still with this...how do you handle sand areas at Pacific and Ballyneal?

Diamante plays them as through the green when last checked.

If one can't tell...I'm all against sand as a hazard with all the rules, raking and protocall. I am totally for sand being used as a natural feature found on courses and it should be played the same as rough and 'through the green'....as it was in the beginning.

Not getting my hopes up for change though...not in my lifetime anyway...but I still hold on to this silly idea of playing a simpler and less expensive game...all for the good of the Game.