Streamsong Red (Streamsong, Fl; C&C): all holes up (photos really tuned up!)

[Mike Sweeney]

This is probably the best par 5 on the property. The inverted mound will have some interesting reactions from first time players. Lots of room on the right that is not obvious from the fairway.

Great hole, imo.

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:  typo alert above.  #7 is a par 5, as the yardage book corroborates.

The seventh is one of my favorite holes on the property (on either course).  The bailout area to the right of the green is interesting and the little shots from wide right back to the green are frightening!

The original version of the green was much wilder, and I am happy they toned it down before they were finished. It's a terrific hole and it didn't need any more difficulty.

[Joe Bausch]

#8.  Par 3.





Another superb par 3.  On my first day the pin was toward the back and we played the right tee where the angle of attack requires very good distance control, although perhaps the easiest pin is this longer back one.

Tee view:



Here is the view from the shorter left tee, still no bargain to this pin:



View from just behind the green where both tee areas are visible:



On the second day we played the left tees to this middle-ish pin requiring another precise shot:



From short of the green with that deep bunker really protecting that day's pin:



From long and right of the green:



I'll finish the front nine later today most likely.

[Mark McKeever]

Wow.  That drop off left of the front flag is only a pace or so off the green!  Wild.

MM

[Ben Kodadek]

Wow.  That drop off left of the front flag is only a pace or so off the green!  Wild.

MM

When the pin is set in the front, the shot is just about 100 yards.  We played to a middle hole location and I think it was 109 (from the Black tees).

[Mike Sweeney]

Fantastic hole from both left and right tees.

This is a great stretch of holes on The Red.

[Tom_Doak]

Some will remember from looking at the routings at the start of the project that this hole was not in the original plan.  Originally, there was a short par-3 between #2 and #3 ... the second green would have been to the left, and the green for the short hole about where the second green wound up.  But those holes were laid out based on a couple of small features that were destroyed by the mining operation that went through the second hole, and after that, Bill decided to close up a gap between current #7 and #9 by building this little par-3.

I've been interested to see what people thought of this hole.  So far no one has mentioned the feature that I figured might be quite controversial.

[Joe Bausch]

I've been interested to see what people thought of this hole.  So far no one has mentioned the feature that I figured might be quite controversial.

Being able to have a putt and not go straight at the hole?

[Howard Riefs]

Here is the view from the shorter left tee, still no bargain to this pin:

Why is the sand area on the left red-staked?

[Tom_Doak]

The red stake is there because the lake to the left of #7 extends part-way up into this hole.  It will rarely see play because the hole is so short and the green is set to the back end of it and works away from the water.

I've been interested to see what people thought of this hole.  So far no one has mentioned the feature that I figured might be quite controversial.

Being able to have a putt and not go straight at the hole?

Joe:

That's it.  The green is shaped like one of those Tetris blocks [like an L-shape with another tongue going to the left on top], with bunkers right into the corners of the green.  It looked like there could be several different scenarios where it was impossible to putt at the hole.  And, the green is relatively flat, so you're not going to be able to use any slopes to funnel the ball around the bunkers that get in your way.  I am hoping Noel Freeman will find out the hard way in our match on Sunday morning!

[Howard Riefs]

The red stake is there because the lake to the left of #7 extends part-way up into this hole.  It will rarely see play because the hole is so short and the green is set to the back end of it and works away from the water.

Thanks, Tom.

[Rick Shefchik]

I've been interested to see what people thought of this hole.  So far no one has mentioned the feature that I figured might be quite controversial.

Being able to have a putt and not go straight at the hole?

Joe:

That's it.  The green is shaped like one of those Tetris blocks [like an L-shape with another tongue going to the left on top], with bunkers right into the corners of the green.  It looked like there could be several different scenarios where it was impossible to putt at the hole.  And, the green is relatively flat, so you're not going to be able to use any slopes to funnel the ball around the bunkers that get in your way.  I am hoping Noel Freeman will find out the hard way in our match on Sunday morning!

Never been a fan of greens like that, but I'll reserve judgment till I see it next week. Tom, is wedge play discouraged/banned on that green, or are the fringes cut so tight that you don't have to consider a wedge?

[Mike Hendren]

The "sandpile" right of the 7th green is one of the best and most practical architectural features I have seen on a modern course.  Love it. Love it. Love it.

Why isn't is used more often?

Bogey

[Matthew Petersen]

The "sandpile" right of the 7th green is one of the best and most practical architectural features I have seen on a modern course.  Love it. Love it. Love it.

Why isn't is used more often?

Bogey

I'd say it works because we know/assume that it was an existing feature at the site. If someone built a dune, I doubt it would go over as well.

[Tom_Doak]

The "sandpile" right of the 7th green is one of the best and most practical architectural features I have seen on a modern course.  Love it. Love it. Love it.

Why isn't is used more often?

Bogey

Mostly, because it is very difficult to get the vegetation on the dune "right".  The dune in question had a bunch of weedy grass [cogan grass] on it, to the point that you could have lost a ball.  They left it like that until the very end and then killed off the grass with Roundup.  But, it remains to be seen how it will hold up to heavy traffic.  If balls stay on the mound and people try to play from it, it will get all footprinted up, and then everyone will say it's unfair ... plus it will start to degrade via wind erosion.  Maybe that won't happen here because the mound is so small and steep.

We built a mound (bigger and not as sharp) next to the 17th green at Sebonack at Mr. Nicklaus' direction, but they try to keep "native" grass on it, and it's a crapshoot as to how it plays.  I've tended to avoid features like that because it puts so much pressure on the superintendent to keep the playability just so.  Plus, at a lot of our courses, a feature like that would blow away in a week!

[Joe Bausch]

#9.  Par 4.  The front nine closes with a short four.





The green is about 40 yards wide.  On the 2nd day the pin was right.  So, you think, how do you play this hole?  Lay-up out to the right for a flip wedge?  Or, hit driver out near the green right?  Or, maybe, did you take a peek at the green contours above and see trying to drive the green left or be off the green left isn't such a bad idea...

Tee view:



A took the left route with the driver, and you can perhaps see the ball just left of the green below:



A Mickelson SW seemed risky, but after studying the green and the playability along the ground at S'song, the flat stick was chosen and after a serpentine route that goes hard right at the end, I had a tap in.

A view from left of the green:

[Alex Miller]

I don't know if anyone here has played ANGC, but the contours look like those of hole 2, of which I am a big fan.

How did this hole play compared to the 4th? They both seem like cool but different short 4s.

[Ben Kodadek]

I don't know if anyone here has played ANGC, but the contours look like those of hole 2, of which I am a big fan.

How did this hole play compared to the 4th? They both seem like cool but different short 4s.

I think that there is a bit more strategy on the 4th.  A lay up is probably the smarter play, depending on hole location. 

On 9, the front bunker is a pretty simple up and in.  I don't know if I would ever lay back there. 

[Noel Freeman]

The red stake is there because the lake to the left of #7 extends part-way up into this hole.  It will rarely see play because the hole is so short and the green is set to the back end of it and works away from the water.

I've been interested to see what people thought of this hole.  So far no one has mentioned the feature that I figured might be quite controversial.

Being able to have a putt and not go straight at the hole?

\


Joe:

That's it.  The green is shaped like one of those Tetris blocks [like an L-shape with another tongue going to the left on top], with bunkers right into the corners of the green.  It looked like there could be several different scenarios where it was impossible to putt at the hole.  And, the green is relatively flat, so you're not going to be able to use any slopes to funnel the ball around the bunkers that get in your way.  I am hoping Noel Freeman will find out the hard way in our match on Sunday morning!

TD, just remember I'm Mr. 415 or 925 now so my 212 putt reading is gone.  I take my time.. I just hope we hit more fairways as a group then you did when you played Ran at Sebonack.  BTW, Ran is threatening to thrash me if we play a match at Streamsog-- I remind you he has the prowess of the Italian military.

[Tom_Doak]

Noel:

You will get to play Ran in Round 2 if you both win your first-round matches (or if you both lose).  He and Ted have a good match-up themselves in Round 1; it should be fun no matter which of them we wind up playing.


Joe B:

Red #9 is my favorite hole at Streamsong, and one of my favorite greens I've ever seen anywhere.  I don't think it's quite like anything I've seen anywhere else.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe B:

Red #9 is my favorite hole at Streamsong, and one of my favorite greens I've ever seen anywhere.  I don't think it's quite like anything I've seen anywhere else.

This is the kind of exchange I really like.  Tom, can you give more details why you like the Red 9 green so much?

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe - and in stark contrast to the kind of comments/insights that Tomn D can provide, I just offer my thanks for another terrific course profile. You really do top notch work - thanks much.

My only other observation - and it applies to both courses: I'm struck by the wonderful use of 'empty space', including the ever present horizon, to shape and contextualize the golf holes. That you have provided both the overhead/official hole photo and your own from-the-ground views is what helped me notice this, i.e. the overhead suggests the strategies and challenges, but your photos show me how those interact with (and our made more interesting and appealing by) 'space'.

Peter

[Joe Bausch]

#10.  Par 4.





I view this little stretch of holes on more subtle land a nice respite...

Tee view:



Approach shot view:



From short of the green:



From over the green:

[Mark Saltzman]

The tee shot at the 10th feels like an ode to Perry Maxwell.

[Mac Plumart]

Makes sense.  Coore is a fan of Maxwell, at least that is my understanding.

Mark, it might be a good idea for you to explain why you see this as an ode to Maxwell.