[Jim Colton]

What if hypothetically the ratings were expanded to America + The Old Course -- how do you think TOC would fare in the published rankings? Which of the criteria would show well vs. not so well?

For more details on the Golf Digest criteria and formula, see below or click here:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2013-02/100-greatest-by-the-numbers#ixzz2GxFxa5st

1. Shot Values
How well do the holes pose risks and rewards and equally test length, accuracy and finesse?

2. Resistance to Scoring
How difficult, while still being fair, is the course for a scratch player from the back tees?

3. Design Variety
How varied are the holes in differing lengths, configurations, hazard placements, green shapes and green contours?

4. Memorability
How well do the design features provide individuality to each hole yet a collective continuity to the entire 18?

5. Aesthetics
How well do the scenic values of the course add to the pleasure of a round?

6. Conditioning
How firm, fast and rolling were the fairways, and how firm yet receptive were the greens on the day you played the course?

7. Ambience
How well does the overall feel and atmosphere of the course reflect or uphold the traditional values of the game?

For context, here are the U.S. courses ahead of TOC in other publications:

Golf Magazine - Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Augusta National
Links - Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Augusta National, Shinnecock Hills
Golfweek (assuming you can compare points between U.S. Classic & GBI classic) - Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Shinnecock Hills, NGLA, Oakmont, Augusta National, Merion, Fishers Island, Pebble Beach, Crystal Downs and potentially Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes modern [St Andrews was #2 GB&I classic w/ 8.76 pts]

[Ed Brzezowski]

I cannot see where it would not be ranked.

Great shot values, wonderful topography, great green complexes, bunkers that add a penalty shot to your score. Memorable holes??  2 ,5,7 12,14,17???  Nice views from the 12 tee and the look back to the town from the back nine is great.

Resistance to scoring?? Add the wind and have some fun.

It easily surpasses a course  here in Philly that made the top 100, besides a great par three most folks confuse the par fours. They are so similar.

[John Kavanaugh]

It is clearly between 1 and 3 every year, year in and year out.  Some of the smartest most informative and traveled golfers I have ever met are Digest raters.  They are masters at reverse engineering.  The Old Course gets ranked, The Old Course gets ranked.

[Cristian]

I cannot comment on the ranking of American courses by Golf Digest as I have not played enough to judge. However I can comment on the ability to rate international courses.

On the top 100 international by GD Waterville ranks ahead of Ballybunion, Valderrama apparently is better than Swinley and Nirwana is preferred over St George's Hill, just to name a few, ehhh, remarkable findings in the rankings. One could go on. The international rankings have improved over the last few years as previous versions were even worse than the most recent version. TOC is of course better known than most of the other international courses ranked by GD, but even in this ranking (top 100 international) TOC did not do better than no. 3, so it would seem unlikely that it would come top 5 in a combined ranking according to GD.

[Nigel Islam]

Cristian, What are #1 and #2?

[Cristian]

Cristian, What are #1 and #2?

Royal County Down and Royal Melbourne (W).

[Cristian]

I wonder, are the people who rank the International courses (in part) the same people who rate the US top 100?

[Tom_Doak]

Jim,

Surely you can rank The Old Course based on the GOLF DIGEST criteria, why don't you try.

If I was forced to, it would be something like this:

Shot Values - 10
Resistance to Scoring - 7 or 8
Design Variety - 9
Memorability - 8
Aesthetics - 6 or 7
Conditioning - 8 or maybe 9 with the new definition
Ambience - 25

The ambience score should keep it up where it belongs.

[Bill_McBride]

Cristian, What are #1 and #2?

Royal County Down and Royal Melbourne (W).

Hard to argue with those choices. 

I am unable to rank the top 20 I've played, but surely Cypress Point and Pebble Beach are somewhere in there.  So is The Old Course, my favorite. 

[Jim Colton]

Tom,

 Is that shot values before or after they moved the bunkers on 2?

 I could give it a score, but my question is more where would it end up vs. what would I give it. My best guess just looking at the categories and how other courses perform:

Shot Values: 8.35
Resistance to Scoring: 7.70
Design Variety: 8.15
Memorability: 8.7
Aesthetics: 8.15
Conditioning: 7.60
Ambience: 8.70
Total: 65.70

That would put it 15th, just behind Muirfield Village and ahead of Alotian Club

[Cristian]

Cristian, What are #1 and #2?

Royal County Down and Royal Melbourne (W).

Hard to argue with those choices. 

I am unable to rank the top 20 I've played, but surely Cypress Point and Pebble Beach are somewhere in there.  So is The Old Course, my favorite. 

Of course. I agree it is not easy to argue with the top 3 choices, but some of the other ones are very strange to say the least: I'll give you another one: Yas Links is rated higher than Royal St George's, or Ganton and while Les Bordes is ranked 63, places like Woking, Worplesdon and Prestwick are not ranked in the top 100 at all.

This makes me question how traveled these raters are, and how good they are at reverse engineering, if these are indeed the same group that does the US national ranking.

[Mark Bourgeois]

The changes to TOC should improve its ranking because the changes are removing the course's lack of definition. Lack of definition I posit cannot score super-high on shot values because, as Richard Dreyfus might put it, "whose shot values are they anyway"?

Additionally, some of the changes such as eliminating the hollow on 7 were done to improve conditioning.

All in all, I think these changes line up quite nicely with Golf Digest's criteria.

Jim: I would say you have aesthetics too high. For reference, here is what Washington Post columnist Tom Boswell wrote to me about a month ago regarding TOC's aesthetics:

"I look at St. Andrews and see East Potomac Park, but with a whole bunch of ugly bumps and a thousand stupid bunkers that you can't escape. Oh, and it's ugly -- no Potomac River, no Washington Monument framing about 5 or 6 tee shots. Gimme East Potomac every time."

FYI on conditioning East Potomac scores -5.6782. (This is the same course Steve Marino played a few years ago. Shot only -4 and here's what he said: "It's just kind of like you hit it and guess where it goes on this course," Marino said. "I don't think I'd ever shoot over par on a course like this, but I'm not sure I could ever go really low. On nice courses, you know when you hit a good shot that you're going to get rewarded for it. So if you're playing great, you score great. Here, you just never know.")

Oh, last point. TOC isn't even top 3 on Golf Magazine's list: Augusta National has it beat.

[Frank Pont]

Christian,

The problem is that GD seems to use their country rankings as a basis, then give countries some sort of weight and then mix it all together. That is why courses that are high say in France or Germany can come higher in the list that a lower placed course in UK. Good courses in small countries are also undervalued in this system.  That is  why the Dutch courses are underrepresented (small country = low country weight).

[Jon Wiggett]

Jim,

Conditioning - 8 or maybe 9 with the new definition

Tom, surely a good links should blend seamlessly with the surrounds. The anti-thesis of definition!


As to TOC ranking place it should be top 2 in the world IMHO but it needs multiple plays to really appreciate it and raters who understand how to play the running game

Jon

[Gary Slatter]

Jim:   I like your math, is that called "Reganomics"?

IMHO, if the same team did the rating as for the US courses, I doubt the OC would get in the top 100.  However, if their World Team did the rating, the Old should always end up in the top 2 or 3 (because rating criteria should be based upon the Old Course).

After I played Dornoch the first time, then returned to St Andrews I felt that if Dornoch was sitting beside the Old, more people would play Dornoch.  That feeling lasted only a few weeks, and the Old has continued to grow on me, and it gets 9.5 on six of the categories, maybe only 8.8 on conditioning (on annual average condition).

Interesting Canadian course rankings in recent GD. 

[Jud_T]

Christian,

The problem is that GD seems to use their country rankings as a basis, then give countries some sort of weight and then mix it all together. That is why courses that are high say in France or Germany can come higher in the list that a lower placed course in UK. Good courses in small countries are also undervalued in this system.  That is  why the Dutch courses are underrepresented (small country = low country weight).

Frank,

The good news is those arbitrary weightings are done to the fourth decimal place.

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