[Paul Gray]

Golf is an incredibly backwards business.

Yes it is. The question is how did it get to this point? For example, how did the clarion call of "excellence and economy" by the great architects 100-years ago evolve to the bling-bling we are graced with today?

Because, IMHO, the courses built are a microcosm of societal attitudes. Post war western economies embraced a consumerist philosophy at all costs. If something was bigger, newer and evidently expensive it was automatically deemed to be desirable. We threw away or neglected all things old and replaced them with monuments to naked capitalism which, in golf terms, were silly water fountains, bunkers which shouted "came here and conquered" and greens so artificially managed that we could make golf balls look like yo-yos on them.

Peter Dye et all saw the light and most on this site do but, I would argue, a World recession is only just beginning to cause a shift in mentality for most in the game. The paradigm, to date, has not shifted at the average golf club. A more basic and less costly approach is seen as a temporary necessary evil, not an opportunity to rediscover something once lost.

[Gary Slatter]

Only a minor annoyance, very few understand that most courses need "staging areas" convenient to the range or clubhouse.   This is more of a concern at resort courses.   Maybe a few more should work with the owner regarding clubhouse location and traffic flow. 

[Sean_A]

Only a minor annoyance, very few understand that most courses need "staging areas" convenient to the range or clubhouse.   This is more of a concern at resort courses.   Maybe a few more should work with the owner regarding clubhouse location and traffic flow. 

Gary

I have played one hell of a lot of courses and very few had staging areas.  To me, they are a bloody eye sore.  Often times an ugly tent set up with carts parked around it.  This will be the same club that does its best to hide the parking lot from the golf side of the course.  Go figure.  The odd thing is the reason there is a tent set up because when the house was built, there was no need for a staging area much of the time.  Its a modern concept that I can do without.

Ciao

[Bryan Lewis]

My two:

1) Courses that can't be walked or it's impractical at best.
2) Too much thick "natural" grass areas where it's easy to lose golf balls and slows play.

For what it's worth.

Bryan

[Paul Gray]

Only a minor annoyance, very few understand that most courses need "staging areas" convenient to the range or clubhouse.   This is more of a concern at resort courses.   Maybe a few more should work with the owner regarding clubhouse location and traffic flow. 

Gary,

Out of interest, why do you feel they are needed and why more so at resort courses?

[Jim Nelson]

Here's a couple to start:

1.  Poor cart path management.  Accepting cart paths are needed, keep them out of sight.  And certainly keep them out of the middle of the fairway.  I can't stand cart paths anywhere near the centerline of the hole.  Golfers hit it everywhere, so yes, cart paths are always in play, but designers, please keep them where you have to hit a really bad shot to reach them.

2.  Mickey Mouse ears in bunkers and over-bunkered courses.  I think the easiest design copout is bunkers, bunkers, bunkers.  Second is the MM ears on bunkers.  There are places on my home course where I have never, ever seen anyone hit a ball.  Ok, some might be needed for visual framing, but really... the maintenance costs have to be a killer.

3.  Owners who take good holes and change them with little understand of routing, flow and hole design simply because the hole is deemed as too easy.  Way to go.  Take the only two shot, heroic par 5 on the course and change it into a penal three shot par 5.

4.  Unwalkable courses, particularly when they had a blank slate.  Come on guys, you can do better.



 

[Gib_Papazian]

Lay-up tees shots on a par-4, followed by a 210 yard approach.
Hilltop greens on long par-4s built up even further, with enormous carry bunkers in front.
Deep rough, in front of bunkers.
Green complexes that provide no opportunity to run the ball in along the ground.
Narrow putting surfaces, oriented perpendicular to the line of play, with bunkers behind the green.
Arbitrary rough lines with no connection to the surrounding topography.
Trees that overhang along the line of play or (worse) in the middle of the fairway.
Circular arguments about Merion.
Boring 2nd shots on par-5s.
A repetitious demand for a high cut-shot approach with a long iron.
Cart paths juxtaposed adjacent to water hazards on the fairway side.
Undulating greens that Stimp past 9.
Eucalyptus trees lining the fairways.
Wayne Morrison.
Uphill 18th holes.
Long drives from the clubhouse to 1st tee. (yes, I know about Sand Hills)
Golf courses built in the modern era that include the name "National."
Bunkers on the high side of a sloping fairway or green complex.
Nick Saban press conferences.
Fairway bunkers equidistant from the tee that pinch the landing area.
Long, forced carries with no option or alternative.
Enormous bunkers (as opposed to firm waste areas) out-of-proportion to the size of the surrounds.
Insanely hard finishing holes.
Rough anywhere perpendicular to the line of play.
Tiny greens on long par-4s.
The combination of over-watered fairways and rock-hard, elevated putting surfaces.
Anything associated with Rees Jones.
Golf courses with Men's tee variations of more than 300 yards. (i.e. White Tees 6010, Blue Tees 6900, Black Tees 7250)
Uphill driving ranges, oriented into the prevailing wind.
Over-manicured CCFAD corporate rip jobs that charge a fortune for a sleeve of balls.  
Practice greens next to the 1st tee with no relationship to the speed of the putting surfaces on the course.
Oval bunkers (Atlantic Golf Club).
Ugly beer wenches.
Long par-3s early in the round that back up play.
Golf courses that let egotistical, middle-handicap douche-bags play from the Black Tees.
Enormous, tasteless logos on golf shirts (not architecture, but it still pisses me off).
Thoughtlessly placed Women's Tees that give 90% of the gals zero chance of reaching the green in regulation.  
No soft walking paths from green to tee, but endless cement for motorized carts.
Ridiculous backtracks between green and tee (#7-#8, Olympic Lake)
Remodeled greens that don't match anything else on the course. (Ron Freem, et al)
Dumb queries from architects who already know the answers to this question.
    
  

[Troy Fink]

Gib,

I had fun reading your list.

I'm curious, what pisses you off about "Narrow putting surfaces, oriented perpendicular to the line of play, with bunkers behind the green?"

Thanks,
Troy

[Gib_Papazian]

The same thing that pisses me off about holes that require a towering cut to hold the green.

That is just the beginning of things that aggravate my already congenitally morose disposition.

Any more stupid questions and I'll add GCA "Newbies" to the list.  

[John Kavanaugh]

The same thing that pisses me off about holes that require a towering cut to hold the green.

That is just the beginning of things that aggravate my already congenitally morose disposition.

Any more stupid questions and I'll add GCA "Newbies" to the list.  

Troy,

Don't mind Gib, he is a fine player who has undergone some physical issues that prevent him from getting the ball in the air.  Figuring you had never played with Gib I found your question quite entertaining.  It is a common misperception among architecture buffs that a green must be accessible for all levels of players.  The type of green mentioned would be a disaster for 90% of all golfers.  Not only do they miss it they end up in a damn bunker.  It just isn't fair.

[Gary Slatter]

Only a minor annoyance, very few understand that most courses need "staging areas" convenient to the range or clubhouse.   This is more of a concern at resort courses.   Maybe a few more should work with the owner regarding clubhouse location and traffic flow. 

Gary,

Out of interest, why do you feel they are needed and why more so at resort courses?

I worked for many years doing executive golf outings for IBM, Nortel, PepsiCo, etc. and due to the fact they were combining meetings with golf it usually meant a shotgun was required and many clubs have no area to set one up, and still use the range for clinics etc.  The majority of outings were on resort courses but many are at private clubs.  I know this site prefers walking golf, but corporate golf requires riding and shotguns - many of the private clubs also loved the revenue, and in some cities they have no resort type courses so we had to find private clubs looking for some action.  We bailed out a course in New Orleans one year, 12 week day shotguns over 3 weeks made the pro and manager look pretty good.

[Troy Fink]

Would the 12th at Augusta National qualify as one of these greens that pisses Gib off?  If so, how fustrating it must be for him every April. 

[RJ_Daley]

Questions about 135 acres....

[jeffwarne]

Well at least Atlantic addresssed one of Gib's issues.......

[Paul Gray]

Only a minor annoyance, very few understand that most courses need "staging areas" convenient to the range or clubhouse.   This is more of a concern at resort courses.   Maybe a few more should work with the owner regarding clubhouse location and traffic flow. 

Gary,

Out of interest, why do you feel they are needed and why more so at resort courses?

I worked for many years doing executive golf outings for IBM, Nortel, PepsiCo, etc. and due to the fact they were combining meetings with golf it usually meant a shotgun was required and many clubs have no area to set one up, and still use the range for clinics etc.  The majority of outings were on resort courses but many are at private clubs.  I know this site prefers walking golf, but corporate golf requires riding and shotguns - many of the private clubs also loved the revenue, and in some cities they have no resort type courses so we had to find private clubs looking for some action.  We bailed out a course in New Orleans one year, 12 week day shotguns over 3 weeks made the pro and manager look pretty good.

Well, certainly that's a fair answer. Personally I'd insist on a medical certificate before allowing anyone onto a buggy anywhere and even then I'd confiscate it if I saw any sign of knee bend in the backswing but then me and my principles would be bankrupt within a week. 

Somewhat off topic re architecture but, whilst the apparent link to all things grotesque presents itself, I'm so very glad that the cart girl thing hasn't made its way to my side of the pond as yet (or at least I'm not aware of it doing so). Surely one of the most pathetic sites in golf has to be that of a middle aged, brash, lard arsed egotist leering at an attractive young lady whilst guzzling beer and throwing junk food at his face. Sorry to go OT. 

The short green, certainly on firm and fast courses in the UK, IMO presents the perfect opportunity to demonstrate an ability to read and use the running terrain provided. Certainly growing up on a links it was exactly those sorts of greens where you felt your appreciation of the running game could gain you an advantage over an opponent from an inland, leafy track.

[Mike Hendren]

Indiferent shaping.  I can forgive almost anything else if the architect/constructor will simply shape a little interest into the green surrounds and and surfaces, even if it's totally random. 

[Gary Slatter]

Only a minor annoyance, very few understand that most courses need "staging areas" convenient to the range or clubhouse.   This is more of a concern at resort courses.   Maybe a few more should work with the owner regarding clubhouse location and traffic flow. 

Gary,

Out of interest, why do you feel they are needed and why more so at resort courses?

I worked for many years doing executive golf outings for IBM, Nortel, PepsiCo, etc. and due to the fact they were combining meetings with golf it usually meant a shotgun was required and many clubs have no area to set one up, and still use the range for clinics etc.  The majority of outings were on resort courses but many are at private clubs.  I know this site prefers walking golf, but corporate golf requires riding and shotguns - many of the private clubs also loved the revenue, and in some cities they have no resort type courses so we had to find private clubs looking for some action.  We bailed out a course in New Orleans one year, 12 week day shotguns over 3 weeks made the pro and manager look pretty good.

Well, certainly that's a fair answer. Personally I'd insist on a medical certificate before allowing anyone onto a buggy anywhere and even then I'd confiscate it if I saw any sign of knee bend in the backswing but then me and my principles would be bankrupt within a week. 

Somewhat off topic re architecture but, whilst the apparent link to all things grotesque presents itself, I'm so very glad that the cart girl thing hasn't made its way to my side of the pond as yet (or at least I'm not aware of it doing so). Surely one of the most pathetic sites in golf has to be that of a middle aged, brash, lard arsed egotist leering at an attractive young lady whilst guzzling beer and throwing junk food at his face. Sorry to go OT. 

The short green, certainly on firm and fast courses in the UK, IMO presents the perfect opportunity to demonstrate an ability to read and use the running terrain provided. Certainly growing up on a links it was exactly those sorts of greens where you felt your appreciation of the running game could gain you an advantage over an opponent from an inland, leafy track.

Paul:    what about the cart girl on the Old Course, usually stationary at the 10th Tee?  Was the lemonade stand not the first?   IMHO golf needs both the purists like you, and the corporate golfers to help pay for you'all:-)

[Paul Gray]

Gary,

Stop it. In my tiny mind any half way hut is still a contentious issue.  

And furthermore, let alone cart girls, when were woman allowed onto the golf course at all? Next you'll be telling me professionals are allowed in the clubhouse these days.  

But I do agree with you really. Despite indications to the contrary I'm in favour of golf being as inclusive as possible. I just hold the view that, rather than a race to the bottom, encouraging the masses to learn and understand the game would be beneficial for all. Golf is something approaching a spiritual experience for me and any form of dumbing down for seal clapping halfwits will inevitably rattle my cage. I do a stint as a course marshall once a week at my club and yet again yesterday I had to defend the position that jeans aren't acceptable on a golf course. And this from a supposed liberal. Anyhow, it's completely OT so I'll leave it there.

[Gary Slatter]

Only a minor annoyance, very few understand that most courses need "staging areas" convenient to the range or clubhouse.   This is more of a concern at resort courses.   Maybe a few more should work with the owner regarding clubhouse location and traffic flow. 

Gary

I have played one hell of a lot of courses and very few had staging areas.  To me, they are a bloody eye sore.  Often times an ugly tent set up with carts parked around it.  This will be the same club that does its best to hide the parking lot from the golf side of the course.  Go figure.  The odd thing is the reason there is a tent set up because when the house was built, there was no need for a staging area much of the time.  Its a modern concept that I can do without.

Ciao

Sean: most courses can use the back of their range tee, or parking lot,  others have staging areas that don't look like staging areas.  I hate tents too, I don't consider tented areas staging areas.  Sometimes it is as simple as making paths around clubhouses wider and without curbs.
cheers

[Jason Topp]

Shotgun starts need carts even if everyone is walking.  You pretty much need to drive to your tee for your safety, to allow everyone to tee off at the same time and to allow people to finish at relatively similar times. 

The big advantage of a shotgun is happy hour afterwards.  Walking back from distant tees screws that up.

[paul cowley]

Lay-up tees shots on a par-4, followed by a 210 yard approach.
Hilltop greens on long par-4s built up even further, with enormous carry bunkers in front.
Deep rough, in front of bunkers.
Green complexes that provide no opportunity to run the ball in along the ground.
Narrow putting surfaces, oriented perpendicular to the line of play, with bunkers behind the green.
Arbitrary rough lines with no connection to the surrounding topography.
Trees that overhang along the line of play or (worse) in the middle of the fairway.
Circular arguments about Merion.
Boring 2nd shots on par-5s.
A repetitious demand for a high cut-shot approach with a long iron.
Cart paths juxtaposed adjacent to water hazards on the fairway side.
Undulating greens that Stimp past 9.
Eucalyptus trees lining the fairways.
Wayne Morrison.
Uphill 18th holes.
Long drives from the clubhouse to 1st tee. (yes, I know about Sand Hills)
Golf courses built in the modern era that include the name "National."
Bunkers on the high side of a sloping fairway or green complex.
Nick Saban press conferences.
Fairway bunkers equidistant from the tee that pinch the landing area.
Long, forced carries with no option or alternative.
Enormous bunkers (as opposed to firm waste areas) out-of-proportion to the size of the surrounds.
Insanely hard finishing holes.
Rough anywhere perpendicular to the line of play.
Tiny greens on long par-4s.
The combination of over-watered fairways and rock-hard, elevated putting surfaces.
Anything associated with Rees Jones.
Golf courses with Men's tee variations of more than 300 yards. (i.e. White Tees 6010, Blue Tees 6900, Black Tees 7250)
Uphill driving ranges, oriented into the prevailing wind.
Over-manicured CCFAD corporate rip jobs that charge a fortune for a sleeve of balls.  
Practice greens next to the 1st tee with no relationship to the speed of the putting surfaces on the course.
Oval bunkers (Atlantic Golf Club).
Ugly beer wenches.
Long par-3s early in the round that back up play.
Golf courses that let egotistical, middle-handicap douche-bags play from the Black Tees.
Enormous, tasteless logos on golf shirts (not architecture, but it still pisses me off).
Thoughtlessly placed Women's Tees that give 90% of the gals zero chance of reaching the green in regulation.  
No soft walking paths from green to tee, but endless cement for motorized carts.
Ridiculous backtracks between green and tee (#7-#8, Olympic Lake)
Remodeled greens that don't match anything else on the course. (Ron Freem, et al)
Dumb queries from architects who already know the answers to this question.
    
  

Dam Gib....you have just become my poster child for my alternative thread over yonder...come on by...liven it up...sit a spell 

[Bryan Lewis]

I'll add one more...  Bunkers that blend into natural sandy areas.  It makes them look natural, which is good, but makes administering the Rules difficult.  Looking at pictures of the changes to Pinehurst #2, I'm not sure next year how we are going to define what the boundaries of those bunkers are.

[Paul Gray]

I'll add one more...  Bunkers that blend into natural sandy areas.  It makes them look natural, which is good, but makes administering the Rules difficult.  Looking at pictures of the changes to Pinehurst #2, I'm not sure next year how we are going to define what the boundaries of those bunkers are.

Surely not. Least we forget that the game was originally played through the dunes.

Swallow your humility pill, accept that one way or another you and you alone have put your ball in a less than desirable spot and, if in any doubt, simply don't ground your club.

[paul cowley]

I'll add one more...  Bunkers that blend into natural sandy areas.  It makes them look natural, which is good, but makes administering the Rules difficult.  Looking at pictures of the changes to Pinehurst #2, I'm not sure next year how we are going to define what the boundaries of those bunkers are.

Surely not. Least we forget that the game was originally played through the dunes.

Swallow your humility pill, accept that one way or another you and you alone have put your ball in a less than desirable spot and, if in any doubt, simply don't ground your club.

Or better yet play all sand areas as waste...as in through the green.

[Bryan Lewis]

I'll add one more...  Bunkers that blend into natural sandy areas.  It makes them look natural, which is good, but makes administering the Rules difficult.  Looking at pictures of the changes to Pinehurst #2, I'm not sure next year how we are going to define what the boundaries of those bunkers are.

Surely not. Least we forget that the game was originally played through the dunes.

Swallow your humility pill, accept that one way or another you and you alone have put your ball in a less than desirable spot and, if in any doubt, simply don't ground your club.

Or better yet play all sand areas as waste...as in through the green.

Or play all sand as bunkers.  As Through the Green the ball can be deemed unplayable and dropped on grass, and the player could test the sand and ground his/her club.  If they look like bunkers, their bunkers.  My only point is since we administer bunkers differently I don't like it when architects blur the line and make it difficult to tell what is a bunker and where they start and stop.  I bet when Donald Ross built the course it wasn't hard to tell what was a bunker.

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