More Pine Valley architecture

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

I didn't change a thing, mate. I have been talking about strategic decisions throughout and in my most recent post I illustrated my point with both medal and match play examples.

When you start making things up ("I don't see it as lying, I see it as distracting the opposition"), that's where I bow out and say thanks to all for their contributions to a really interesting discussion.

[JMEvensky]

Every fairway has an edge and maybe that's part of the fun...but when you boil it down the edges at Pine Valley are not worth aiming for. We all need them as margin of error for misses.

Are you saying that,for each tee shot on the golf course, it's too risky to aim anywhere but center of the fairway? That's some kind of penal.

[Jeb Bearer]

Patrick,

Isn't match play as legitimate a mode as medal? The fact that the situations and decisions change unpredictably in match play would point to the existence of strategic decisions, no? Can we say that in match play the course is more strategic, while in medal it plays like a different, more penal course? Or is this an artificial distinction?

[JESII]

Pretty much Jeff, yep!

What I'm really saying is that the cost of hitting it into any of the hazards or off areas is exponentially higher than any value gained by a better angle/view/stance. Over the course or a round it would average out to well more than a single stroke per instance.

[JMEvensky]

Pretty much Jeff, yep!

What I'm really saying is that the cost of hitting it into any of the hazards or off areas is exponentially higher than any value gained by a better angle/view/stance. Over the course or a round it would average out to well more than a single stroke per instance.

Sounds like a pretty easy risk/reward calculation.

[JESII]

I don't know...sounds like Scott likes to jump over dollar bills to pick up pennies...

I'm a believer that penal and strategis are on different ends of the same chart and that quality doesn't favor one or the other.

[JMEvensky]

I don't know...sounds like Scott likes to jump over dollar bills to pick up pennies...

I'm a believer that penal and strategis are on different ends of the same chart and that quality doesn't favor one or the other.

I'm not qualified to debate strategic v. penal,nor was that my point. My interest was purely PVGC specific--I've never played the golf course.

I just figure that if a GOOD player says hitting any part of any fairway far outweighs the risk of missing any fairway,it's worth noting.You can't say that about many golf courses.

I should tell you that I e-mailed The Lurker to hear his take.

[JESII]

How would he know? He's never missed a fairway...nor has he missed a par putt inside 15 feet...

Maybe Scott is right that all these thoughts are driven by the demons inside!

[archie_struthers]

Scott , good stuff , don't let Mucci push you off the page. He doesn't mean any offense , it's just his argumentative side getting engaged. We're all friends here.   JME.   There is no safe spot save in the fairways, so it's critical not to miss them , sometimes you can't get out of the gronkel for awhile.

But again , I don't know why there isn't more interest in the assertion that Colt is  Crump's ghostwriter , that it wasn't an original idea to use trajectory and forced carries throughout to frustrate the best players.  I'm strongly on the side that Crump was the "guy". And although he appreciated the imput from all , it was his baby , his deal . As Tom Doak aptly pointed out, Colt gets a lot more credit than he might get today, given the circumstances of Crump's death and the completion schedule .


I'm all bout the trajectory argument , and that it was very likely the epiphany that forged Crump's target , aerial golf innovation.

[JMEvensky]

 There is no safe spot save in the fairways, so it's critical not to miss them , sometimes you can't get out of the gronkel for awhile.

 

Is gronkel Philly-speak for gunch?

[archie_struthers]

 


Bu of course. 

[JESII]

Archie,

PV may have taken it to another level, but Merion forces aerial approached to #3, 4, 7, 8, 9, Original 10, 13 (original and Current), 15, 16, 17 and 18. So it was already happening locally when he jumped off the train in Clementon.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I didn't change a thing, mate. I have been talking about strategic decisions throughout and in my most recent post I illustrated my point with both medal and match play examples.

Scott,
Medal play strategy doesn't vary much, day to day.
Match play strategy is highly situational and mostly assumes that your opponent has played first and/or that you have situational status in your match.

ie, your normal strategy on # 5 is to lay up short of the green (a very sound strategy). But, your opponent hits first and gets a hole in one or a leaner, ergo you abandon prudent/normal strategy and try to make a hole in one.

When you start making things up ("I don't see it as lying, I see it as distracting the opposition"), that's where I bow out and say thanks to all for their contributions to a really interesting discussion.

You presented hypothetical , situational examples in a match play context.
Since a golfer might never face those situations, their relevance in describing or discussing the architecture on a hole by hole basis is questionable, especially when discussing where to drive the ball.

If it's your honor are you going to take the riskier line, the line more fraught with disaster, or the line providing the greatest margins ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Isn't match play as legitimate a mode as medal?

Not when discussing tactical play at PV

The fact that the situations and decisions change unpredictably in match play would point to the existence of strategic decisions, no?
Not necessarily.
Let's say that you have the honor on the first tee, tell me how your strategy off the tee will differ versus medal play.

Same assumption and circumstance on every hole tell me how your drive differs match versus medal play ?


Can we say that in match play the course is more strategic, while in medal it plays like a different, more penal course?
Or is this an artificial distinction?

No, it's incredibly situational in match play.
So many decisions (play) are altered by your opponents play and not prudent choices dictated by the architecture

[David_Elvins]

This thread is doing a terrible job of convincing this casual observer that Pine Valley is one of the best courses in the world. 

[JESII]

Why is that?

[archie_struthers]

 

David, I knew this was coming .... A golf course that doesn't make you hit strategic tee shots, just middle of fairway , middle of green. Very few touch or run up shots, don't be bold , be boring , say the experts. How can it be so good ?  An excellent question .

Oh , but it tempts you , it beguiles you by letting you think you are home , and then you miss one a little , just a wee bit ,  it ends up in a spot the likes of which you can't imagine, you don't know how to react and make a number.  Now you get to the next tee and try to force a birdie, nope . What hole is this ?  Five.  Why are those guys stopping to watch you hit  , is this really a par three?  Big drive over the gully on six , but you slightly overcook  your second shot and are in the wrong part of a devilish  green , uh oh, three putt. How can I be four over , I 've only hit one slightly wayward shot , what is going on. I'm the Ohio am champ , played for Florida.  Par five coming up , I can bomb it , Ill get it by the green it two and make four . Good drive , .guess I won't. What is that bunker it looks like a minefield , better not be too crazy and lay it up .

Ok, eight , short birdie hole, good drive , the caddy tells you that he saw Watson make two here one day , and seven the next from the same spot. Yeah, that Tom Watson . .  Nine is pretty straightforward, but how do I flight this second shot, where the hell is that pin??? Are we still in NJ?  Surely I can birdie ten , eleven or twelve,  you do , and hope renews,.  Then comes thirteen and you hit your tee shot perfect but you pulled it just a snit, it's in the fairway but you have to hit a thirty yard slinging hook to find the green......how can my chip run out so far, it can't be that much downhill. Boy is my caddy in trouble.   Fourteen here we go shortish par three, woo, it's really beautiful, what's the wind doing , legend says only one guy ever could figure it out , and  Elmer's dead!    


You have to go there see it , feel it, it's just a wonderful test every day , you think you can , but you can't, and you are not alone.

[David_Elvins]

Thanks Archie, that is a great retort!

[Patrick_Mucci]

David, Scott, Jeb & JME,

I think, more than anything, before you get to the first tee, you're already defensive, based on all you've heard about PV.

And, when you arrive at the first tee, you have no idea where the green is.
You just see a fairway with woods front, left and right.
So you become even more defensive and tense.

That tension continues and is reinforced at each and every hole, with perhaps, relaxation achieved upon reaching the 18th green.

More than any other course, I think the golfer's concern is more about where NOT to hit it rather than where to hit it.

And I think that's a huge distinction versus most courses

[Jeb Bearer]

Patrick,

Thanks for that explanation that helped a lot. For someone completely unfamiliar with the course, reading this thread I've sort of gotten the impression that a slight miss anywhere is death. Is this accurate or is there typically a "good miss" (or at least relatively good)?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Thanks for that explanation that helped a lot. For someone completely unfamiliar with the course, reading this thread I've sort of gotten the impression that a slight miss anywhere is death. Is this accurate or is there typically a "good miss" (or at least relatively good)?

Jeb,

Many of the fairways are quite generous, so plenty of misses find the fairway, IF you don't get too aggressive/greedy.
If you just try for center cut, you're usually in good shape.

I find # 2 and # 7 to be confining.
# 1 and # 6 tricky visually.

Really generous are # 18, 17, 16, 15.

While 13 is wide, far right is blocked off and left center slopes severely, further left into trouble.

# 12 is generous and going right, even in the woods, isn't disastrous.

# 11 you can't be too far left or you're blocked out..

I also find # 9 a little intimidating for some reason.

# 8 is fairly wide, but, you don't want to have a downhill lie into those tiny greens.
Many years ago, Jay Sigel told me to hit driver as far as I can, as previously, I used to hit a 2/3 iron or 4-wood off the tee.  Now I hit driver to try to get to the flatter area just short of the green.

As Archie said, the golfer is often tempted to "reach" for more, but, that doesn't often produce favorable results.

[JSlonis]

The best shot I've hit on my rounds at PV was a nailed but pushed tee shot on 4. I was expecting to find it in a trap at the top of the hill but instead it was in the middle of the fairway a yard from the cut off leaving a little 8 iron to the green. Certainly not a line you deliberately take but a bonus none the less.

Looking at Scott's aerial of #1 the rough past the bunker seems out of place and removes any reason to have a go from the tee. I'd be interested to hear how differently Crump Cup players attack the course on match play days rather than in qualifying.

Mark,

That rough behind the right fairway bunker is gone now. That bunker now extends all the way to the road.  It has changed that tee shot a bit. You used to catch a break sometimes if you cleared that bunker after hitting a solid push off that tee. That's no longer the case. The new bunker is much bigger and has a few little islands of scrub just to make things more interesting.   

[David_Elvins]

David, Scott, Jeb & JME,

I think, more than anything, before you get to the first tee, you're already defensive, based on all you've heard about PV.

And, when you arrive at the first tee, you have no idea where the green is.
You just see a fairway with woods front, left and right.
So you become even more defensive and tense.

That tension continues and is reinforced at each and every hole, with perhaps, relaxation achieved upon reaching the 18th green.

More than any other course, I think the golfer's concern is more about where NOT to hit it rather than where to hit it.

And I think that's a huge distinction versus most courses

Pat,

This is the sort of stuff that makes me wonder how good the course is.  I have played quite a few great courses and quite a few courses that have made me feel defensive.  They WERE NOT the same courses, not even close. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

That's part of what makes Pine Valley so special, it is a great course, with ample width, that makes the golfer play defensively.

Now that sounds counter-intuitive, width and the creation of tension, resulting in defensive play, but, that's part of the genius of Pine Valley.

Is there a wider fairway than # 18, 17, 16 and 15, yet, all of those holes, with all of their width, can frighten the golfer, especially if there's a bit of a breeze in the air.

Look at an aerial, see how wide # 13 is, yet, it doesn't play as wide as it's dimensions and part of that is the visual and physical presentation.

It's not # 1 in the world for nothing, but, don't tell that to Shivas.

[JSlonis]

David, Scott, Jeb & JME,

I think, more than anything, before you get to the first tee, you're already defensive, based on all you've heard about PV.

And, when you arrive at the first tee, you have no idea where the green is.
You just see a fairway with woods front, left and right.
So you become even more defensive and tense.

That tension continues and is reinforced at each and every hole, with perhaps, relaxation achieved upon reaching the 18th green.

More than any other course, I think the golfer's concern is more about where NOT to hit it rather than where to hit it.

And I think that's a huge distinction versus most courses

Pat,

This is the sort of stuff that makes me wonder how good the course is.  I have played quite a few great courses and quite a few courses that have made me feel defensive.  They WERE NOT the same courses, not even close.  

David,

How good is the course? That's a tough question to answer fully but I'll leave you with this.  I've played with and have to talked to countless people about Pine Valley, from tour players to your average golf nut & golf architecture buff and I've gotten the same answer every time when I ask them about their experience...even with all the hype and intrigue, I hear that the course still exceeded their expectations in every way.  That I think is a pretty good indicator of how good it is.

In my view there are a couple things that set it apart from anywhere else. First, I'd argue that as a whole, Pine Valley may very well have the best  collection of greensites of any course in the world. The designs are extremely unique and varied and provide a wonderful test.  Secondly, I'd challenge you to find any course with 18 excellent holes and not one single hole looks or plays like any of the others. There aren't any similarities yet they flow seamlessly into one another.

In speaking about the penal or strategic nature of the course, I could honestly take all day. To be brief...Yes,  your misses can be punished severely, but outside of holes 2 & 7, the fairways are more than generous. With the modern equipment, it takes a poorly struck shot to drive the ball out of play. From a competitive standpoint, it is a physical and mental grind in stroke play and yet a helluva lot of fun in match play.

Lastly, however he found it   Mr Crump no doubt found the most interesting piece of land in Southern NJ and used it to perfection in his routing. There isn't another site in this area that offers the variety and interest that you find at PV. As the book title states, it's a "Unique Haven of the Game".