[Jeb Bearer]

How does the design process of the European Club compare to Pine Valley?

[JESII]

Scott,

I challenge you to back up those strategic choices you cited a few posts ago. Both 1 and 6 feature options to the right which certainly result in shorter shots the same way any dogleg would but both force the player to hit the ball 230 or more in the air. Once you're capable of that carry, do you pick one side of that section over the center of that section?

#'s 8, 11 and 13 are all best approached from the center of the fairway. There's no way to look at those holes on the ground and think differently/

#16 is probably better from the right but the fairway should take the ball there. There's no reason to aim there from the tee.

#4 and #17 are also center line tee shots although both drives must travel over the trouble on the right to reach the center of the fairway at the appropriate distances.

#15 offers a value in a flat lie on the second shot from the left side if you're willing to go in with a 6 or 7 iron.

The nature / severity of the hazards absolutely has an impact on the strategic nature of a course. It dictates how much risk goes along with any reward for position.

[Scott Warren]

Jeb:

How does the design process of the European Club compare to Pine Valley?

That is almost too tempting. But I do not miss Mr Ruddy's emails and shouldn't wade into territory that might invite new communications! I think it's safe to say that Crump didn't discover the site at PV from a helicopter!

Jim:

The nature / severity of the hazards absolutely has an impact on the strategic nature of a course. It dictates how much risk goes along with any reward for position.

Absolutely. I don't disagree. And that varies from player to player, depending on their internal composition and ability to hit a golf ball to a determined point.

Electing to take a safe line does not mean the options don't exist, it just means you decided on the option that best suits your game.

Even for short hitters there are options to play as far right at 1 & 6 as is possible.

At the 1st:

A 200 yard drive that hugs the bunker down the right leaves 160 yards to the front.
A 200 yard drive that heads safely down the left leaves 190 yards to the front.

A 250 yard drive that hugs the same bunker leaves 130 yards to the front
A 250 yard drive down the left centre leaves 165 yards to the front.

None of those drives need to carry more than 155 yards to reach the fairway from the members' tee, and there's a forward tee for those who can't make the carry and still want to enjoy the hole.

The carry is more significant at the 6th, but for someone capable of a 220 yard carry, a tee shot right of the small pine that sits on the ridge both shortens the approach and gives a much better angle up the green.

I'll maintain that the 8th, to the original left green, is much better approached from out on the right far enough down to find the flat area. Far easier than a delicate 60-80 yard pitch off a sidehill.

I disagree on others, but rather than arguing with you, I'll note that this exhibits that for different golfers there are different ways to skin a cat at Pine Valley. There are options and decisions to be made.

16 is a great example. I hit a draw and carry the ball about 230 - driving over the centre/right of the bunker is absolutely the wisest play for me. Unless you hit a hard cut, there's no way the land is kicking a left-centre drive down to where I want to approach from.

It seems to me you are not saying that strategic decisions don't exist at Pine Valley, you're saying that for your game and brain, flirting with many of the hazards doesn't make sense.

[archie_struthers]

  

From a caddies perspective, the first round for a competent player is often the best at Pine Valley, particularly if you can get them swinging freely at the Ball. Ah , but once they realize just how bad a missed tee shot can impact your score, they tend to steer lots of tee shots. Certainly there are shots that you can  be aggressive on with skill and a little chutzpah, notably one and six. Aggressively cutting  the corner can make the shot on one much easier, and its probably the only tee shot that IMHO is worth the risk.  If you happen to get it roughed up laying it out front of the green with a wedge isn't the worst thing in the world.
 

I used to feel the same on number four until they built the new bunkers on the right side approximately 220 to 240 off the tee. Though beautifully integrated, I think they limit options on  what used to be a great  decision for a lot of shorter hitters.

Just a footnote : as the course is lengthened and firmed up for tournament play , the angles become more critical

[JESII]

Scott,

You should redo your measurements. You do not gain 30 or 35 yards by hugging the right edge of the first fairway as opposed to being in the center of the fairway. You may gain 10...at the expense of reduced visibility and a slightly worse angle.

You suggested the short hitter can go as far right as possible on #6 as well...what are you talking about?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

While driving right on # 6 shortens the second shot it doesn't necessarily make getting closer to the hole easier with your approach.

Balls in the right half of the fairway are presented with a more difficult approach than balls hit into the left side of the fairway.

And, getting to the left side of the fairway is much harder when you drive the ball further right.

Yet, every time I play the hole, depending upon the wind, I'm tempted to drive right of the fir tree and as close to the tree line as possible, but, if you fail, your scoring round might be over.

[archie_struthers]

 

Scott have to agree with Mr Sullivan regarding the tee shots. If you only hit it 200 yards down the right side on number one you are either in the bunker or some very gnarly rough. Twenty years ago the area in question was pretty benign and warranted an agressive play . The play gets sketchy if you hit it too far , as you can hit the road that crosses the fariway about 120 yards out and end up in the bushes on the other side. When you go all the way back for Crump qualifying , this becomes one of the scariest holes on the golf course , particularly if the wind is up even a little bit. Now you are hitting three wood instead of rescue , and the sliver in the right corner isn't nearly as inviting .

The game at PVGC is all about the final score , and eluding that one bad shot that makes you take a big number. I'm regurgitating an old story here,  but a very ,very good am named Joel Hirsch once made 16 pars in the qualifier and shot 81. If memory serves me he piped it down the middle  on eight and made 11, playing flip flop in those bunkers. On thirteen he made eight. Joel was a really good player for a lot of years, a national quality player.

I had hoped this thread would focus on Crump's use of forced carries and truncated landing areas as unique. IMHO he embraced this  strategy  to a greater extent than anyone who preceded him.  Although we disagree as to Colt being the genesis of this, Sean Arble took this issue up to my delight.  Isn't this really salient to Pine Valley's allure , particularly at the time of the design.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

And because you want to avoid the X from any one swing you want to take advantage of the margins provided by generous fairways, by playing to the middle, and avoid the flanks where disaster lurks.

[Mark McKeever]

Yet, every time I play the hole, depending upon the wind, I'm tempted to drive right of the fir tree and as close to the tree line as possible, but, if you fail, your scoring round might be over.

Well put Pat.  That tee shot down the right is is ALL or NOTHING.

Mark

[JESII]

That tee shon #6 just may be the coolest on the course and it certainly plays to your theory Arch...when it's just a little firm there is so much pressure on hitting just the right shot, which I think is a high fade. If you pull it a little or flare it a little you've got big problems. If you hit it well you've got the easiest shot on the property.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yet, every time I play the hole, depending upon the wind, I'm tempted to drive right of the fir tree and as close to the tree line as possible, but, if you fail, your scoring round might be over.

Well put Pat.  That tee shot down the right is is ALL or NOTHING.

Mark, the last two times I tried it I hit good tee shots that carried the pit, but, what I had forgotten was the uphill nature of the fairway as it ascends from the pit's flank, so my drive got next to no roll and left me with a much shorter, but awkward angle into the green.

When those greens are F & F, it's almost impossible to stop the ball off the right side slope in that green, making it very difficult to get close to the hole.

A drive further left, leaving me an approach INTO that slope will produce better results without the risk of an X

Mark

[JESII]

Agreed that center or left center is a great look into that green but I'm always petrified by the pull that goes through into that stand of trees...

I'd love the look of the waste area in front of the 7th tee as opposed to those large arbividae but either way this is, to me, Pine Valley's ultimate ball control tee shot.

[archie_struthers]

 

As to the carry on the corner on #6. I'm playing with long drive champ Mike Dunaway , Rocky is on my bag . It's a casual round out for fun , and Dunaway plays pretty good. He nuked a drive on four  that carried the bunkers at the bottom of the hill, but PV had him reined in pretty good so far.  I hit first on six and with my  persimmon Eye o Matic hit one a little further right than is advisable. Hit it really solid and it carries the big ditch , ending up about 100 yards out.  Feeling pretty good about myself , it saunter back to my bag and turn just in time to see Mike hit one up and over the trees on the right, flying it into,the front left green side bunker......yep green side bunker. 

Up the hill to the fairway we walk, Rocky working me over pretty good over thinking I could hit it .  At the top of the hill I told him enough, to which he replied "at least you putt pretty good".   Just another PVGC  story , but I still laugh thinking of just how far Dunaway hit it!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Agreed that center or left center is a great look into that green but I'm always petrified by the pull that goes through into that stand of trees...

I think we've all done that, but I prefer a pull to a push.
It's a neat hole that often has you questioning your method of play even if you make par.
and, if I use 3wood off the tee it brings more trouble into play for me.

I'd love the look of the waste area in front of the 7th tee as opposed to those large arbividae but either way this is, to me, Pine Valley's ultimate ball control tee shot.
I think that's true.
I think there's a premium on distance control off the tee and I can't think of many courses where that's as critical. 

[Scott Warren]

Archie and Jim,

You seem to have misunderstood my point about shortening the approach to #1 by hugging the right. I was not referring to carrying the bunker.

The graphic below shows the distinct advantage to be had by aiming down the right side of the fairway as opposed to the left, even without carrying the corner bunker.

Both are 200-metre drives from about the location of the members' plates. From the red marker to the front of the green is 138 metres. From the green marker it's 169 metres to the front. No bravery is called for, just accuracy. Even if you split the difference and compare a RHS drive to one straight up the centre, it's 138m vs about 153m - 1.5 to 2 clubs.

With another 10, 15, 20m on the drives, the right line becomes more and more attractive over the left, without having to carry any extra sand.

I agree the centre of the fairway is a fine place to be - my point is that there are advantages to hugging certain sides of the fairway and #1 is an example.

Do you agree that you would much prefer to be hitting from the position indicated in the right of the fairway than the left (drives are exactly the same length)?

Next time I'm there I plan to try the "every drive down the middle" approach as you've encouraged and see whether it makes the course seem easier, harder or the same as my previous approach of challenging the "better" lines as they appear to me.

[archie_struthers]

 

Scott great graphics but I stand on what we talked about. If you want to take a shot you need to hit it over the bunker into the corner and really gain twenty five yards.  Laying back short of the bunker isn't great, and the angle is worse.  When I was an assistant there in the early eighties, I would generally hit a baffler ( remember them )  over the corner into the fairway. However at that time the rough over the trap was benign .

This play only makes sense from the members tees, not the tips. You just don't want to start out with a double or worse if you fan it wide right. It is the first shot if the day.  Enjoy the repartee , before you go give me a shout and we can talk about the greens .

[JESII]

Scott,

I understood and think Archie might have misunderstood...but he and I agree on the lack of value of striving for the right edge alongside the bunker. Why would you compare it to the left corner of the fairway. The debate is center of the fairway versus edges.

Your drive with the red marker compared to an equidistant drive in the center of the fairway leaves a slightly shorter approach with reduced visibility from a worse angle. You tell me if that's worth the risk of ending up in that right bunker.

Every fairway has an edge and maybe that's part of the fun...but when you boil it down the edges at Pine Valley are not worth aiming for. We all need them as margin of error for misses.

[Scott Warren]

Fair enough. I understand where you guys are coming from.

FWIW I think the two camps are coming at this from slightly different places. I agree in some instances that the risk of chasing the strategic advantage outweighs the reward for many golfers, but in others I do believe it's worth the hunt.

Again, it comes down - at PV maybe more than anywhere else - to the kind of golfer you are between the ears as much as your ability to hit great shots.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott ,

Look at your diagram
.
If the golfer comes off the tee shot right, he doesn't clear the trees and doesn't have a shot into the green

Another reason to play the middle

[Scott Warren]

Pat,

My point is summarised above.

On that shot, if I can hit a reliable little cut, I aim down the middle and hit it. If it cuts, I am in great positon. If it doesn't, I am still on the fairway.

If I could walk up and place my ball 250 yards from the tee, where would I place it? Certainly not down the left and likely closer to the right than the centre.

As with 6 - where would you walk up and place it, 250 from the tee? Probably straight over the fir.

Those preferred positions exist, and for every golfer the internal debate of whether the risk is worth it will vary - and within the one guy will vary day to day depending on how they're hitting it, how their round or match stands...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

The problem is that one mis-step at PV results in a disastrous score, so is that minimal benefit derived from taking the risk worth the potential for ruining the round ?

[Scott Warren]

On the 1st tee, probably not. Playing the 1st hole as the first extra hole of a match, maybe it is.

Two down with three to play standing on the 16th tee, perhaps a brave drive down the right is the best bet. Two up with three to play, probably not.

Four down after 9 and your opponent 8ft from the hole, you might go at a pin cut just over the Devil's Asshole. In a stroke round, that's not a pin to fire at.

These things will always be shades of grey, Pat, so you can't really ever make a blanket statement that a shot isn't worth going for. What's important is that the architecture is there for you to encounter in whatever state you find yourself in at the time.

[Mark Chaplin]

The best shot I've hit on my rounds at PV was a nailed but pushed tee shot on 4. I was expecting to find it in a trap at the top of the hill but instead it was in the middle of the fairway a yard from the cut off leaving a little 8 iron to the green. Certainly not a line you deliberately take but a bonus none the less.

Looking at Scott's aerial of #1 the rough past the bunker seems out of place and removes any reason to have a go from the tee. I'd be interested to hear how differently Crump Cup players attack the course on match play days rather than in qualifying.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

You changed medal play strategy to hypothetical, situational match play strategy.

The golf course is static, hypothetical, situational match play situations change at will, so in terms of how to play PV I think you have to start with medal play strategy, and that starts on the first hole.

Not long ago, on the first tee,  a good friend said to me, ," let's have a medal play match."
Before the first hole was over he said, "let's forget about the medal play match", as the course had already taken it's toll on his score.

So discussions on hypothetical, situational match play aren't a prudent way to discuss how to play the course.

How to play the course, in medal play, is a more informative method  when discussing the architecture and it's influence on play.

[JESII]

I think you can talk about a course in the context of medal play or match play. Dreaming up hypothetical situations in makes my point clearer. Unless pushed to the brink you wouldn't try a shot.

Scott,

Every hole on the planet offers some percieved advantage to try something, that alone doesn't make them strategic. I believe the hazards at Pine Valley carry so much risk that any advantage, percieved or real, is exponentially outweighed.

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