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Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New 7th Green Complex at Chambers Bay
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2013, 04:06:33 PM »
The other thing that made me laugh was the statement that a course should present a 'reasonable' challenge during the US Open. I was always under the impression that the USGA wanted to present the 'stiffest' challenge!

Jon

There is a difference between a stiff challenge and an unfair challenge. Trust me. There will still be plenty of bogeys and doubles on the hole. The change will make it so the pros won't be cry babies about the course, which it seems they always do when conditions are challenging.

Matthew, the word used was 'reasonable' which is pretty much in the same vain as the word 'nice' IMO. As has been mentioned by others on this thread, there is no unfair in golf. Also and correct me if I am wrong but, I always thought that the USGA intended to present the 'stiffest' challenge at the US Open to set the worth of their championship apart from the many other tournaments that offer a 'stiff' challenge.

Lets be honest about what this is about. The hole as was is proven to be a good par 5 but it was more important that it was a par 4 because for the USGA the length of the course in comparison to the par is more important than what is actually there.

Lets face it they saw a winning score of  (281) +1 on a 7170 yard par 70 as great. But in reality the par for the course was 73 which would have made Mr. Simson's winning score of -11 in reality. As such a low score is for what ever reason not acceptable they have to effectively falsify the card.

It is all the more baffling when you take into account that a field made up of most of the best players in the game averaged almost 1 over the real par of 73. What is wrong with being proud of what you have with a course and its challenge. Why this embarrassing need to fiddle the books and how come so many people accept this stupid trend as being the only way to go?

Jon

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New 7th Green Complex at Chambers Bay
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2013, 06:48:04 PM »
The other thing that made me laugh was the statement that a course should present a 'reasonable' challenge during the US Open. I was always under the impression that the USGA wanted to present the 'stiffest' challenge!

Jon

There is a difference between a stiff challenge and an unfair challenge. Trust me. There will still be plenty of bogeys and doubles on the hole. The change will make it so the pros won't be cry babies about the course, which it seems they always do when conditions are challenging.

Matthew, the word used was 'reasonable' which is pretty much in the same vain as the word 'nice' IMO. As has been mentioned by others on this thread, there is no unfair in golf. Also and correct me if I am wrong but, I always thought that the USGA intended to present the 'stiffest' challenge at the US Open to set the worth of their championship apart from the many other tournaments that offer a 'stiff' challenge.

Lets be honest about what this is about. The hole as was is proven to be a good par 5 but it was more important that it was a par 4 because for the USGA the length of the course in comparison to the par is more important than what is actually there.

Lets face it they saw a winning score of  (281) +1 on a 7170 yard par 70 as great. But in reality the par for the course was 73 which would have made Mr. Simson's winning score of -11 in reality. As such a low score is for what ever reason not acceptable they have to effectively falsify the card.

It is all the more baffling when you take into account that a field made up of most of the best players in the game averaged almost 1 over the real par of 73. What is wrong with being proud of what you have with a course and its challenge. Why this embarrassing need to fiddle the books and how come so many people accept this stupid trend as being the only way to go?

Jon

You are correct; I agree. I did not really mean unfair but unreasonable. The green before was unreasonable, whether it was/is played as a par 4 or a par 5. I have stated previously and still stand by the idea that there should be no "par." The game is about hitting the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes - whether you are playing stroke or match play.

To answer your third question, it is all psychological, for the viewer and the golfer. If the viewer saw that -11 won the US Open compared to +1, the viewer would think the course must of been easier, even though all that was changed was the par. It gives the feeling that the USGA achieved the "stiffest challenge" as you were talking about before. This also applies to the mentality of the golfer, which we all know, is a big part of the game.

To answer your first question, the USGA has its own way of making the course a "stiff challenge," as I said before. I am all for a challenge, but the original green was unreasonable. The hole is still going to be one of the biggest challenges on the course, but now, I can say that it is 100% reasonable. There will be 3's, there will be 8's, and everything in and maybe outside that range, despite what par the hole is. If you play the hole driver, wedge, wedge, and make a 4 or 5 that way, go right ahead; you are extremely likely to not make a 3, and in result, lose a stoke to quite a few players. The major reason the average score was 5, was because there were so many 6, 7, and 8's, not because players couldn't make a 3. So, in conclusion, the changes will make it more reasonable to not make a 6, 7, or 8, not to make it easier to make a 3.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New 7th Green Complex at Chambers Bay
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2013, 05:15:18 AM »
Matthew,

whilst I can understand the logic behind what you are saying and I also have to acknowledge you have direct experience of said hole. It is the whole line of thought behind such a decision worries me. There are many great holes that have servere features that often lead in extreme results for a shot. TOC has many a bunker where even top players take several shots to escape. Do we here cries of fill them in? North Berwick's 16th has a green where you can happily chip to and thro across several times. Are there many voices here demanding it should be flattened? Are either of these examples any more 'reasonable'?

Some here were objecting to the hole because it was possible to chip the ball of the green and end up a considerable distance from the green. But what is the problem with this. As I pointed out, it is not unusual during the Masters for some one behind the green at 12 or 15 to end up in the water with their chip and then drop 90 to 100 yards from the flag to play back to the green. The only difference in the two situations being at CB at least you don't have the penalty shot to add. Do we hear cries of unfair or unplayable or even unreasonable?

Par on a hole is set by what a scratch player would expect to average on the hole based on the distance in general . Whether that include double and triple or eagles and albatrosses is irrelevant. Fact is average score in the US Amateur was 5 which suggests the Par should be 5 which is what the distance also suggests.

I wholly agree with you on the reasons for setting the course up in the US Open and the after years of ramming the idea that the US Open is the stiffest challenge around. That any Champion has to go through Hell to win has now become a trap for the USGA due to public opinion. The problem is their solution is to bullshit (sorry about the language but it really is the only suitable word) the general public by calling a par 5 a par 4. It is slowly making a joke out of their own philosophy.

What is even worse is that they (together with the R&A) are the only ones who could solve the real problem instantly, easily, at very little cost and in a way that would have a positive effect on the Pro game and would effect the club golfer very little if indeed at all. If they would finally pull their heads out of the sand and do something about the distance the ball flies then maybe Mr. Simpson's winning score might have been +1 in relation to the genuine par of 73 as apposed to the -11 that it was.

Jon

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New 7th Green Complex at Chambers Bay
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2013, 11:18:03 AM »
...
Some here were objecting to the hole because it was possible to chip the ball of the green and end up a considerable distance from the green. But what is the problem with this. As I pointed out, it is not unusual during the Masters for some one behind the green at 12 or 15 to end up in the water with their chip and then drop 90 to 100 yards from the flag to play back to the green. The only difference in the two situations being at CB at least you don't have the penalty shot to add. Do we hear cries of unfair or unplayable or even unreasonable?
...

Heck, I've seen the player ranked #1 in the world, and has the second highest number major wins, putt off the front of 15. Clearly it is a hole at Augusta National that is UNPLAYABLE. They should hire Mike Davis to screw up fix such problem areas.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New 7th Green Complex at Chambers Bay
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2013, 09:21:59 AM »
I finally made it out to play Chambers Bay for the first time this year and for the first time playing the 7th post renovation. My perspective:  On the negative side, the "new green" doesn't have a side board on the left side, which is where I used to play my approach shot.



On the positive side, balls hit short of the green will likely roll back down, but will no longer collect in the same four-yard area and the following shot will not be nearly as difficult. I previously witnessed several players taking 3 or 4 shots from below, just to get a ball onto the green; no longer, so hopefully the revision will speed up play.   



I realize that is somewhat unpopular on this website to support any revision advocated by the USGA. In this case, though, I think the revision is a net positive for players of every skill level.


Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New 7th Green Complex at Chambers Bay
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2013, 11:01:56 AM »
I finally made it out to play Chambers Bay for the first time this year and for the first time playing the 7th post renovation. My perspective:  On the negative side, the "new green" doesn't have a side board on the left side, which is where I used to play my approach shot.



On the positive side, balls hit short of the green will likely roll back down, but will no longer collect in the same four-yard area and the following shot will not be nearly as difficult. I previously witnessed several players taking 3 or 4 shots from below, just to get a ball onto the green; no longer, so hopefully the revision will speed up play.   



I realize that is somewhat unpopular on this website to support any revision advocated by the USGA. In this case, though, I think the revision is a net positive for players of every skill level.



Thank you for the pictures! I 100% agree with you that the changes are a net positive for all skill levels. Positive does not mean it's easier!!!!!!!!!
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New 7th Green Complex at Chambers Bay
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2013, 10:01:42 PM »
This is too bad - I loved the hole the way it was.

Scott Stambaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New 7th Green Complex at Chambers Bay
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2013, 10:09:03 PM »
Joe-

Is that Young Will in the photo?  He's not old enough to be pushing around a Riksha!

Tell him I said hi.

Scott

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New 7th Green Complex at Chambers Bay
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2013, 09:12:57 AM »
Is that Young Will in the photo?  He's not old enough to be pushing around a Riksha!

Scott, that is the lad. I carried and he pushed. I doubled and he carded a par. Go figure.

I will let him know you said hi. Thanks again for affording him the opportunity last summer.

~joe