[Tim Martin]

Sean,

I take 500 words to clear my throat.

In the future, I'll try to spare you my wind and strive to be pithy and brief.

Thank you for summing up my thoughts.

Was it Pascal who apologized for not having time to write a short note?

Gib,from an admirer in the cheap seats,stay long winded.

+1- Can't tell you how much I have enjoyed Gib's recent musings. Hoping for many more in 2013 and beyond.

[David Davis]

Gib,

Thanks, you should spend more time on the site AND write a book, I'd buy it. (capitalized because I'm hoping you do both). Kolven is spelled correctly, if you are using the verb form. It's Kolf if you are using the noun. Yes the Dutch claim many things maybe it's actually true.

Interesting story, hopefully I'll be able to check these babies out one day and come back and say the Dutch also invented the windmill, even though that one seems to be built of material the Dutch don't utilize.

[Dave McCollum]

Yeah, Gib, keep on typing.  My current favorite phrase describing a course (Purisima in Lompoc, I think) is yours.  Too lazy to look it up, but the jist was “it has more vagina than I have Johnson.”

[Sean Leary]

Jordan...you are not alone.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51316.0.html

Sean Leary- Now that you have played SH I would be interested in your take.

Shinnecock gives Pine Valley a run for its money in my book but think overall PV is better. Prefer the Shinnecock style of course (no trees, open vistas etc) but the quality of the holes at PV is superior imo. I do find Shinnecock better than the next tier down (CPC, County Down etc.  I was surprised how playable SH was for higher handicappers based on the gunch maintenance  but i have gotten different reports about how it was the day I played compared to normal.

[Keith OHalloran]

Sean,
One thing I would warn against, it listening to caddies at Shinnecock or NGLA about the "Normal" condition. The first time I played The National was in 1995, and every time since then, the caddy says at least once "The greens are a little slower than normal". I have played them in the summer, in the spring, in the fall, in the morning, and the afternoon, everytime, same line. It is like they feel that guests want to hear about the legendary green speeds. To this day, I have no idea what a caddy feels is normal, but I can tell you what is "A little slower than normal" 
Along the same lines, the caddies at Shinnecock love teling fescue stories. The former super, and the current, are very good at making sure the native is in play, but playable. There are times, at the begining of the year, or around tournaments, that the native can be brutal, but day in and out, it is playable.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JK - where does tree encroachment adversely affect play at Pine Valley?

1, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17.

The name also suggests the site was wooded to start with.

Steve - RMC is one fantastic golf course with a wonderful mix of holes. It is a great pity there isn't a second true three shotter but that isn't the fault of RMGC. We played it in the President's Cup guise and the opening holes are possibly the strongest stretch of great holes on the planet. I've yet to play Shinnecock but should correct that before too long.

[Jeb Bearer]

Shinnecock gives Pine Valley a run for its money in my book but think overall PV is better. Prefer the Shinnecock style of course (no trees, open vistas etc) but the quality of the holes at PV is superior imo. I do find Shinnecock better than the next tier down (CPC, County Down etc.  I was surprised how playable SH was for higher handicappers based on the gunch maintenance  but i have gotten different reports about how it was the day I played compared to normal.

CPC, a tier down? Is shinnecock really that good?

[Sean Leary]

Shinnecock gives Pine Valley a run for its money in my book but think overall PV is better. Prefer the Shinnecock style of course (no trees, open vistas etc) but the quality of the holes at PV is superior imo. I do find Shinnecock better than the next tier down (CPC, County Down etc.  I was surprised how playable SH was for higher handicappers based on the gunch maintenance  but i have gotten different reports about how it was the day I played compared to normal.

CPC, a tier down? Is shinnecock really that good?

A tiny tier, but yes, I have it slightly below Shinnecock based on 1 play each. CPC has a couple of holes I am "eh" on although it has higher highs. Both Top 5 World though, no question.

[David Davis]

Sean,

I realize you are just stating your opinion and it's difficult for me to formulate mine exactly as I've not played Shinnecock yet however I have seen many photos. It looks amazing however I've played RCD and CPC and judging by the photos of Shinnecock I just can't imagine it being the equal of those courses. There are many who put CPC and RCD as the top course in the world hands down. RCD is argued to be the ultimate golf experience. Ask the majority of people in the British Isles and RCD is the number one course in the world.

I've never heard anyone say that about Shinnecock and unfortunately having only looked at pictures I can't imagine either, nor does it matter at the end of the day as we are debating greatness and one does not have to be better than the other I guess. For me RCD was the best experience until I played CPC.

As for any top 100 lists for example, as soon as a list becomes less US centric in terms of who's doing the voting you quickly see the list taking on a completely different form. Ie, Pine Valley not showing up on top. This is something which I think is important to understand.

[Jeb Bearer]

Sean,

Never having played either course (I've just seen pictures), I'm curious. What holes are you "eh" on and what is it about them that turns you off?

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

I realize you are just stating your opinion and it's difficult for me to formulate mine exactly as I've not played Shinnecock yet however I have seen many photos. It looks amazing however I've played RCD and CPC and judging by the photos of Shinnecock I just can't imagine it being the equal of those courses. There are many who put CPC and RCD as the top course in the world hands down. RCD is argued to be the ultimate golf experience. Ask the majority of people in the British Isles and RCD is the number one course in the world.

I've never heard anyone say that about Shinnecock and unfortunately having only looked at pictures I can't imagine either, nor does it matter at the end of the day as we are debating greatness and one does not have to be better than the other I guess. For me RCD was the best experience until I played CPC.

As for any top 100 lists for example, as soon as a list becomes less US centric in terms of who's doing the voting you quickly see the list taking on a completely different form. Ie, Pine Valley not showing up on top. This is something which I think is important to understand.

If you look at any World rankings, I think that Shinnecock does quite well no matter which magazine. Don't think it is outside the top 5 in any of the major magazines. Many people have it as their number 1.

[Keith OHalloran]

David,
I will back up Sean here. I have played both, and think Shinnecock is the better course.

[ward peyronnin]

Royal County Down is the best course in the world

[Mark_F]

Royal County Down is the best course in the world

Not with that back nine it isn't.  It is if you play the front nine twice.

[David Davis]

Sean,

I don't love a debate I can't back up with personal experience, however the years almost over so I'll bite on this one only because your response is something I can refute easily enough with google.

Of the top 100 rankings I can find/know of. Only one put Shinnecock above RCD or CPC and then only above RCD. It's also the newest and perhaps most US centric. I have no idea how they compiled their list. I do know how Golf and Top 100 compile theirs. All of which can be debated as to their accuracy.

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/topcourses.asp

http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/course-rankings/world (note that here Shinnecock is rated as #6 and while we don't have Golf Magazine here in NL I believe it's still classified as one of the major US mags.

http://www.linksmagazine.com/links100 - The only one I can find putting RCD below Shinnecock.

Can't seem to find any others but it seems that even in the US centric rankings RCD and CPC are rated above Shinne although they all seem to be in the top 5 with a couple exceptions.

In the end I can't draw many conclusions from this other than the fact we are discussing the top courses in the world and the powers that be seem to place RCD and CPC on top. I'm on their bandwagon it seems although I fully accept your challenge of the playing test then and only then I may break down and agree with you. :-) The same goes for Pine Valley...

[Joel_Stewart]

Does anyone know exactly what C&C are doing at Shinnecock?

I'm still trying to find out what C&C are doing out there?

I've played them both multiple times and I prefer Pine Valley over Shinny.  For that matter I also prefer NGLA over Shinny but that's just personal preference.

[David_Elvins]

I haven't played any of them but I would rank them:

Pine Valley
Shinnecock
Cypress Point
Royal County Down
NGLA
Sand Hills

[Keith OHalloran]

David,
Have you checked Golf Rankings? I checked back to 2005, which is all I knew how to find, and Shinnecock has been ranked above Cypress in Golf Digest in every one of these lists. In addition, there were years that Shinnecock has been ranked above Augusta in GD. Pine Valley has always been above SHinnecock, I have never played it, so I have to trust the ranking until I see for myself.

[JESII]

The Pine Valley versus Shinnecock debate is always interesting because the places are so different but in my mind also so far above anything else I've played. Haven't played Cypress or Royal Melbourne or any of Scotland's best...

Can they be matched up? Sure. Both have 12 par 4's, 4 par 3's and 2 par 5's. Why not do it that way?

To me the experience at each is unbeatable. Pine Valley is easier and more difficult so maybe that variety breaks a tie? If I were able to pick a course to play for the rest of my life it would be Shinnecock so maybe that's a tie-breaker??

Too close to call for me

[Mark Pritchett]

From Golf Digest's All Time Top 100 roster:

Cypress Point

America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1975-1976) - Second 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1977-1978) - Second 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1979-1980) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1981-1982) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1983-1984) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1985-1986) - First 10 - No. 3
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1987-1988) - First 10 - No. 2
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1989-1990) - First 10 - No. 4
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1991-1992) - First 10 - No. 3
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1993-1994) - First 10 - No. 4
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1995-1996) - First 10 - No. 4
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1997-1998) - First 10 - No. 3
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1999-2000) - First 10 - No. 3
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2001-2002) - First 10 - No. 4
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2003-2004) - First 10 - No. 3
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2005-2006) - First 10 - No. 4
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2007-2008) - First 10 - No. 4
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2009-2010) - First 10 - No. 4
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2011-2012) - First 10 - No. 5

Shinnecock Hills:
 
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1975-1976) - Second 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1977-1978) - Second 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1979-1980) - Second 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1981-1982) - Second 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1983-1984) - Second 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1985-1986) - Second 10 - No. 12
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1987-1988) - First 10 - No. 6
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1989-1990) - First 10 - No. 3
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1991-1992) - First 10 - No. 4
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1993-1994) - First 10 - No. 5
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1995-1996) - First 10 - No. 6
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1997-1998) - First 10 - No. 5
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1999-2000) - First 10 - No. 5
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2001-2002) - First 10 - No. 6
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2003-2004) - First 10 - No. 6
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2005-2006) - First 10 - No. 3
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2007-2008) - First 10 - No. 2
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2009-2010) - First 10 - No. 3
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2011-2012) - First 10 - No. 3

Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2007-12/100greatestcourses_roster#ixzz2GMV5XYkz

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

I don't love a debate I can't back up with personal experience, however the years almost over so I'll bite on this one only because your response is something I can refute easily enough with google.

Of the top 100 rankings I can find/know of. Only one put Shinnecock above RCD or CPC and then only above RCD. It's also the newest and perhaps most US centric. I have no idea how they compiled their list. I do know how Golf and Top 100 compile theirs. All of which can be debated as to their accuracy.

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/topcourses.asp

http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/course-rankings/world (note that here Shinnecock is rated as #6 and while we don't have Golf Magazine here in NL I believe it's still classified as one of the major US mags.

http://www.linksmagazine.com/links100 - The only one I can find putting RCD below Shinnecock.

Can't seem to find any others but it seems that even in the US centric rankings RCD and CPC are rated above Shinne although they all seem to be in the top 5 with a couple exceptions.

In the end I can't draw many conclusions from this other than the fact we are discussing the top courses in the world and the powers that be seem to place RCD and CPC on top. I'm on their bandwagon it seems although I fully accept your challenge of the playing test then and only then I may break down and agree with you. :-) The same goes for Pine Valley...

I have played all 4. They are all amongst the tippity top courses in the world. How one chooses to rank them personally is simply personal preference. For 15 holes I thought RCD might be the best course I have played. Then I played 16-18.

Trust me,  many, many people have Shinnecock rated above the others. And equally as many have CPC at the top. Nobody is wrong.

Jeb, I was underwhelmed with a few holes at CPC, probably skewed based on expectations (read 17th hole). Nothing turns me off about any of the holes, except 18 which I think could be bettered by simply removing 1 tree.  I think 1 and 10 are just decent. I didn't "get" 8 in my one play, but think I am in the wrong there. I think 12 is very underrated, and maybe 13 is a bit overrated.

That being said, If I had 1 round left to play I would choose CPC...

[Gib_Papazian]

#8 at CPC shares a similarity to #5 at Dunluce.

The tee shots strike me as nearly identical (CPC is a bit shorter carry over the dunescape) - so if you "get" one, you'll get the other. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Shinny, only 4th in the USA according to the latest poll so with the rest of the world included it must be 4 or 5 below that.

Jon

[Sean Leary]

#8 at CPC shares a similarity to #5 at Dunluce.

The tee shots strike me as nearly identical (CPC is a bit shorter carry over the dunescape) - so if you "get" one, you'll get the other. 

Never thought about that but you are right, although Dunluce seems a bit less blind. Again, I know that I am in the wrong on 8. Multiple plays for sure would change my mind.

[David Davis]

You guys all quote Golf Digest so let me ask you a question. Living in Europe I don't get to see these publications they are not exported over here or readily available. Why are you quoting Golf Digest? Is it better than Golf Magazine or Golf Week or Links Magazine?

Golf Digest doesn't seem to do a world ranking so that means we are debating slightly different things here. I couldn't find anywhere that was ranking Shinnecock above #5 but now I'm guessing you guys are looking at US only rankings on Golf Digest....

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