Shinnecock

[Jordan Wall]

Is Shinnecock Hills the best golf course in the world?

I have not played overseas, and have not seen Pine Valley.  That being said, Shinnecock Hills is, in my opinion, the best golf course I've played.  Cypress and National are my favorites, but I believe Shinnecock to be a superior design to both.

The use of bunkers to create angles and dictate play is brilliant.  Every hole, even the par-3's, has hazards that must be negotiated,  Ignoring them leads to angles that makes approach shots extremely difficult.

The routing is superb and the land was to use to maximum effect.  The use of hills adds variety to shots and in doing so makes each holes unique.  The ninth hole has some of the most amazing fairway undulations I have ever seen, seemingly having small mountains to play through.  There is good use of uphill and downhill shots so as to never bore the golfer or make the course seem monotonous.

The greens are tough, small, and require precision if one wishes to navigate them successfully.  The slopes are often subtle and reward the player who successfully negotiates the hazards off the tee to gain the better angle.  Being on the correct side of the hole is a must if disaster is to be avoided.

No two holes are alike at Shinnecock, but they are all great golf holes.  There is not one weak or average hole on the entire course.

Shinnecock also boasts several world class holes, including the 7th, 9th, 11th, 14th, 15th, and 16th.  Cases can also be made for holes 3, 10, 13 and 17 but that should left up for discussion.

The opening hole is one of, if not thee, best opening hole I've ever played.  It is brilliant, and sets the golfer away on his journey in mesmerizing fashion.  Is there a more exciting opening tee shot in golf?

I could go on and on about the merits of Shinnecock, but I'll leave this question up for discussion.  Could Shinnecock Hills be the best golf course in the world?  If not, what sets any other course above it?

In my mind, Shinnecock is perfect.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jordan,

Your post has answered your question. Shinnecock is a very good golf course, but it isn't even your favorite in the neighborhood.

[Mark Chaplin]

It maybe fair on your analysis to say its the best in the USA. But there is a big world out there and until your experience covers a little more than the USA, saying worlds best is like the Workd Series, flawed.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Your post has answered your question. Shinnecock is a very good golf course, but it isn't even your favorite in the neighborhood.

Favorite doesn't necessarily mean best.  Like I said, I feel Shinnecock is a better design although I enjoy playing the National more.  Shinnecock is very brutal and if you aren't hitting it well it makes for a long day regardless of how great the course is.  My favorite courses are the ones I deem most fun to play.

Mark,

You are certainly correct.  But, like I said, Shinnecock is perfection in my eyes.  Granted, I haven't played it as much as others, including people on this website, but that's how I feel about the course.  And, nothing can be better than perfect, which is why I begged the question.  I'm not hiding behind the fact that I have limited experience with the course and in playing other courses, which as you note could certainly open my eyes, but I certainly am curious if others feel the same way about Shinnecock as I do and if not why, especially from those who have had the fortune of seeing and playing courses I haven't.  I'm also not opposed to being incorrect in my assessment, and varying views are why discussion ensues in the first place.

I've thought about this for quite time before I actually posted it.  It isn't a knock against other courses, I'm just curious as to what other people think and to perhaps provide some perspective on why one might think Shinnecock isn't perfect or as to what makes other courses better.  It's hard for me to imagine that a golf course can be better, design-wise, than SH.

[Mark Chaplin]

Jordan - certainly not a knock at you and yes many people rate Shinnecock as their best and it's often rated the best championship course.

You are right over best and favourite. I'd play National over Pine Valley for day to day golfIng fun even though Pine Valley is the finest course I've played. I have another which I'll hopefully play in March and will then have a reasonably good enough spread of courses to say which I think is the world's best.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jordan,

I have never played SH so will not comment on it. Generally though, is a course where you have to hit perfect shots a great course? Surely, strategy, skill and options for various standards of player are more important. The greatest players are those who can win in different conditions and have an all around game. Should not a great course be the same?

Jon

[Michael Taylor]

Jordan

Shinnecock Hills is definately the best golf course I have ever played. The one thing that really sets Shinnecock apart for me is how the holes change direction so frequently, and that makes the course so much more interesting than The National next door since you don't really face the same wind direction on the next hole. I must be in the minority here but I actually found it a much easier course than The National. Shinnecock for me is all about the use of angles and how you have to be on certain parts of the fairway to attack the pins. For me it isn't a course where you can score lots of doubles or triples, but you can have 18 bogeys very easily since many of the greens have run off areas and the ball will feed off severely (like on 10, 11, 6, 7 etc) making your up and downs unlikely.

There are so many special moments at Shinnecock. Hitting your tee shot down the hill on the first, playing the redan 7th, the second shot into 9, walking over the hill on 10 to see the tumbling fairway, the 11th (don't miss left!), smashing a tee shot down the 14th, the amazing downhill tee shot on 15, walking the snaking fairway on 16 with the iconic clubhouse in the background, and strolling up the 18th fairway thinking how privileged you are to have spent the last 4 hours at Shinnecock Hills and how many greats of the game have done the same.

It is pure perfection.

[Andy Troeger]

No two holes are alike at Shinnecock, but they are all great golf holes.  There is not one weak or average hole on the entire course.

Shinnecock also boasts several world class holes, including the 7th, 9th, 11th, 14th, 15th, and 16th.  Cases can also be made for holes 3, 10, 13 and 17 but that should left up for discussion.

The opening hole is one of, if not thee, best opening hole I've ever played.  It is brilliant, and sets the golfer away on his journey in mesmerizing fashion.  Is there a more exciting opening tee shot in golf?

I won't disagree with any of the positives regarding Shinnecock. Its certainly one of the finest courses in the USA and I expect the world. However, I can't rate it #1 because Pine Valley (which you admitted to not having played) takes every one of these points above and raises the bar even higher. Its got the best opening hole I've played, and even more world-class holes than you listed at Shinnecock--and there should be no argument that #10 belongs by the way.  I love Cypress and Pebble as well, but from a design standpoint Pine Valley stands alone of what I've seen. From a "favorite" standpoint its #1 but CPC is a close 2nd.

[JESII]

Jordan,

I think Shinnecock has to be in any conversation of Best Courses in the World...but I cannot see any course above that group. I've played Shinnecock, Pine Valley, Merion, Pebble Beach and Royal County Down in competition and Shinnecock more than holds its own. I've never played St. Andrews, Cypress Point or Royal Melbourne so cannot compare.

I hold PV and SH above the others because of the characteristics you cite; cool varied routing, several unique and world class holes, impactful hazards and a clear challenge is presented.

[Jeb Bearer]

While I haven't played any if these courses, isn't the purpose of a golf course to be, yes, a test of shotmaking but also fun? How can a course be the best in the world if you would rather play a different one?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan,

Define best.

[Paul Perrella]

Jordan,

  I played Shinnecock about 20 times and I always thought it was, in my opinion, the best golf course in the world. Then I went and played Pine Valley. PV made me think about almost every shot on the course and I came away from there thinking it was the best. Nothing has changed over the years and I still think that PV and Shinnecock are my two top courses. with PV having a slight edge.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jordan,

Define best.

Oh Patrick, naughty

You set an excellent question. So often people use 'best' and greatest' without really thinking what they mean.

Jordan, you have used best twice in your last post without defining it.

Jon

[Tim_Weiman]

Jordan,

You have now convinced me even more that Shinnecock is not the best course in the world.

How could it deserve this honor if it is "brutal" when you are not hitting the ball well?

Sounds like you are confusing championship golf with quality golf. The National has never had such negative language used to describe it.

[JESII]

Tim,

Are you suggesting that you can hit it poorly and score well (even average) at NGLA?

I haven't played National but I'd be surprised if I could spray the ball all over and make pars with little trouble...

[Greg Gilson]

This post was originally a question about SH specifically, but it seems to have become a discussion of "FAVOURITE" versus "BEST" or "GREATEST". I'm running with that!

This is how i tried to articulate my thinking a few weeks ago when posting on a different topic. "BEST" will be all about some set of (hopefully mutually agreed) criteria and then trying to rate courses against the criteria objectively & quantitatively. Everyone can debate the criteria used and each rater's rating. "FAVOURITE" is a much more personal & individual meaure which noone else can dispute....noone else can tell me who my favourite football team, golfer, musician etc etc etc is. When i get asked "What's the BEST course you have played", i usually answer along the lines of "Not realy sure - that depends upon your criteria-  but my FAVOURITE courses are.....". For golf courses I have a sometimes fluid set of personal criteria that is roughly based on “the experience” I had on my round(s) at each course
   -“Experience” =
      -50% - Quality of the course architecture (especially variety, challenge & quirk)
      -25% - Quality of atmosphere, history, conditions
      -25% - How much fun I had, desire to return, “if I had 1 last round”

I use this as a starting point but the last criteria (the "desire to return" one) i let trump the others in a close vote.

That said, i see this sort of thing as being like the Miss Universe pageant - the top 100 -1000 candidates are really, really, really, really beautiful and probably its actually impossible to pick the most beautiful contestant. However, everyone gets a chance to put them in their own personal favourite order. Some like blondes, some prefer brunettes.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Define best.

Best: As in nothing is better.  In this case, I'm talking about design. 

How could a golf course be better?

I could see there might be one or two, perhaps more, golf courses that are equally as good but I don't see how  a course could be better than Shinnecock.

[Gary Slatter]

Jordan
Shinnecock is a great course, one of the best in my opinion.  I've only played it a couple of times, from the regular tees it was fun, from the back tees it was also fun, but more difficult as it should be for distance challenged old pros.   I found that you didn't have to hit your best shot every time (that's where fun comes in), as long as you hit your next shot better (more fun).

It may be like Carnoustie, it can be fun, or set up to be very difficult.  In both cases, average golfers can enjoy playing these great well designed courses.   Ballybunion is another similar experience.  Cypress and County Down also fit. 

when I say fun golf I mean suberbly entertaining golf, found on maybe only 100 courses in the world (IMHO).

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim,

I am not saying that. What I am suggesting is that any golf course described as "brutal" probably doesn't pass the test of being the best course in the world. If the course is "brutal", it simply will not bring the greatest pleasure to the greatest number of players. It can't, then, be the best.

NGLA and Shinnecock aren't played by that many people. But, if they were, I suspect far more people would enjoy playing NGLA than Shinnecock.

Shinnecock gets graded higher because of difficulty not because it produces more enjoyable golf.

A tougher question is Pine Valley verses Shinnecock. Personally, I favor Pine Valley, a golf course that certainly wasn't designed for the average guy. But, Pine Valley simply has more great holes and more shots that command your attention than Shinnecock.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

For an 18 handicap player, I think Shinny is quite a bit easier.  I have played both courses numerous times and love them equally.  While I usually score well at NGLA, I am challenged much more a Shinny mostly because of length and failure to achieve proper angle of attack--it is much easier to place drives in proper areas at NGLA.  I use the 18hdcp number because I have seen quite a few really bad blowout holes at NGLA.  I've never seen a double digit score at Shinny, while having left players behind at NGLA on the 3rd hole hill.  The cross bunkers on 9 are deeper from some of the people I've played there with..  I know many 18 hdcp players who routinely shoot to their hdcp at Shinny because it is a bogey you to death kind of course.  A high handicap player can save bogey or double more easily than trying to escape from many of NGLA's bunkers.  In addition, there are more 4-5 putts to be found on NGLA's greens vs. 3 putts at Shinny.

[Gib_Papazian]

Jordan,

You can chase Sambo and the Tiger round and round the tree forever on this topic, but I'll agree with this:

Shinnecock Hills the is the world's more thoroughly objective examination with absolutely no bias towards a particular style of play or ball flight.

Let's say, arguendo, two pretty good players of equal ability wish to have a match:

Player One is a long hitting gunner who propels the ball into the stratosphere with every club including the driver - which occasionally gets away from him. His go-to shot is a gentle cut and he's got a deadly flop shot in his bag. We'll call him Shivas Schmidt because that is his name. For the purpose of believability, we have turned the clock back 10 years.

Player Two is squatty Armenian who drills a low draw off the tee, keeps it between the gutters pretty well, but whose misses off the tee only go about 220 yards. Every club has the trajectory of a four-iron, but he is rarely out of a hole. For the purposes of believability, we've removed the yips from his putter.

Now, over the course of 18 holes, I challenge anybody to finding a bias towards one style or another assuming the usual two club breeze with an occasional gust. I cannot think of any sequence of holes in the world that so thoroughly presents every single possible arrangement of hazards without handing an advantage to either player.

Is it my favorite? Nope, but I talk to the statue in the library beneath the Windmill next door, so I'm not the right person to make that judgment. Pine Valley? Quite a thorough run through the gauntlet for mortals, but the current crop of PGA Tour cyborgs would rip P.V. to shreds. Absent some USGA trickery, the winning score over 72 holes at Pine Valley would be about 265.

You could make the argument for Oakmont I suppose, but the question was not meant to identify the hardest, just the best from all perspectives.

Taken as a complete expression of all facets of the game - strategic, aesthetic etc. etc. . . . . . I am inclined to assert that you cannot make an argument any course in the world is actually better.
           

[Jordan Wall]

Jim,

I am not saying that. What I am suggesting is that any golf course described as "brutal" probably doesn't pass the test of being the best course in the world. If the course is "brutal", it simply will not bring the greatest pleasure to the greatest number of players. It can't, then, be the best.

NGLA and Shinnecock aren't played by that many people. But, if they were, I suspect far more people would enjoy playing NGLA than Shinnecock.

Shinnecock gets graded higher because of difficulty not because it produces more enjoyable golf.

A tougher question is Pine Valley verses Shinnecock. Personally, I favor Pine Valley, a golf course that certainly wasn't designed for the average guy. But, Pine Valley simply has more great holes and more shots that command your attention than Shinnecock.

Shnnecock is brutal for the good player who is trying to score well. However, I agree in Robert's assessment that it is actually easier than NGLA for a regular golfer, say an 18 hcp.  This is due to less blind shots, hazards that are easier to escape, and perhaps the biggest reason being the greens.

But, being "brutal" isn't necessarily a bad thing and perhaps the word was too much of an extreme.  Shinnecock is just difficult for a good player.  The course constantly challenges the better player to take on hazards to get the preferred angle and score.  Refusing to challenge the hazards makes approach shots imminently difficult which perhaps is one of Shinnecock's greatest strength - the emphasis not just on having hazards, but actually needing to challenge them to score well.  Is that not an integral quality of a great golf course?

Shinnecock doesn't get graded higher because it is more difficult.  It is just more difficult because in order to score well, the hazards must constantly be challenged and that is not easy to do, especially for 18 holes.  So yes, Shinnecock is relentless, but it also rewards good play and those who take on the golf course, and even demands the latter.  Is that not the epitome of great golf course design?  Is PV not the same way in this regard?

You mentioned you prefer PV, why is that?

What shots don't command your attention at Shinnecock?  Is there even one?

Does PV have more world class golf holes or more great golf holes?  The only golf hole I would consider good and not great at Shinneock is 6, and even then a good case could be made either way in that regard.

Specifically, what actually makes PV a better golf course as opposed to just one which you prefer more?

Can you say with certainty that PV is legitimately better, design-wise, than Shinnecock?

[Jon Wiggett]

Jordan,

a very good and clear explanation as to why you like SH so much. It is very difficult for a course to be difficult for the top player and yet playable for the higher handicapper. I could not imagine an 18 handicapper having a great result at PV. I have yet to play SH or NGLA or CP but hope to remedy that at some point in the future.

Jon

[Jeff Taylor]

Shinnecock versus NGLA. I would flip a coin, as long as NGLA was on both sides. It was just more fun. It played like an obstacle course.

[Bill Crane]

William Flynn at his finest.

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