[Tim_Weiman]

Jordan,

Perhaps use of the word "brutal" was unfortunate. It comes across more as an argument against the quality of a course than an argument for it.

Choice of words aside, ultimately it comes down to a value judgment: Does possessing qualities that test championship skills surpass possessing qualities that produce fun and pleasure for the greatest number of golfers? I would argue no. I wouldn't take Carnoustie over North Berwick just as I wouldn't take Shinnecock over NGLA.

[Jordan Wall]

Tim, that's fine, and I understand your point of view, but that touches nothing on the questions of your preference of PV over Shinnecock, two courses you put in the same category.

How specifically does the design of PV trump Shinnecock?

[jonathan_becker]

For you, Jordan, and for the rest of the fans!  It's snowing a foot here in Ohio, I'm not up to much today, so here's a shot each from your six world class holes....

7



9



11



14



15



16

[Mac Plumart]

Jordan...you are not alone.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51316.0.html

[Tim_Weiman]

Jordan,

Give me a couple days. Articulating the preference of Pine Valley over Shinnecock isn't easy, especially for the man who prefers North Berwick over Carnoustie.

I will say that Shinnecock was the site of one of my most enjoyable days in golf, surpassed only by playing with long term friends in Ballybunion. The occasion was traveling from Long Beach, CA just to play with Tom Bass, a man who waited tables at Kelly's Restaurant in Long Beach but years before had caddied at Shinnecock for about forty years and, apparently, was the favorite caddy of long time Shinnecock pro Charlie Thom.

So, believe me I have no bias against Shinnecock. Tom Bass was a wonderful man,  a joy to spend an evening with over dinner with oil industry friends in Long Beach and well worth a transcontinental flight for a golf game. And where could one have a better time?

We  are in the rare air making only small distinctions that ultimately come down to personal preference. No one familiar with both courses would confuse Shinnecock with Pine Valley. Both great, but different.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Played both Shinny and PVGC within 4 days of one another a few years back.  It was hard to go out and play my regular muni after that experience!  Both deserve to be in the conversation for #1, but visually they look nothing alike.

[Steve Lapper]

Almost all the accolades printed in this thread are true. Shinnecock is indeed worthy of being held among the worlds finest designs. That said, Royal Melbourne Composite (and even the West Course alone) belongs in this conversation.

Having played multiple rounds there, on Pine Valley, and at Shinnecock, I'd endorse all three as the world's greatest designs. None have any glaring flaws, decidedly weak holes, or rely on much above their vaunted designs to inspire any golfer. Case closed!

[Wade Schueneman]

Jordan,
Shinnecock is my favorite course that I have played in the U.S. (County Down gives it a run abroad, but SH is far more balanced).  What is interesting about this (to me) is that I like quirky courses with fun green complexes (think # 1 at NGLA).  SH is not in one sense my type of course, but what it does it does so well that I just love it.  It is so pure.  While I have not played PV, I find it interesting that some try to compare the courses hole by hole.  I understand the temptation, as I do it as well, but when was the last time that you tried to compare two novels chapter by chapter.  Imagine arguing that War and Peace is better than the Brother Karamazov, because the former has 10 great chapters while the latter has only 8.  SH has more to recommend it in my mind than just bunkering, or consistency, or conditioning or honest challenge (which is what seems to get most of the press).  What about the unity of the layout after the tree removal (as opposed to the seclusion some of the holes at PV seem to enjoy).  What about the magnificent rythm of the course.  The stunning opener easing us into the round and then we go clockwise and then counter clockwise through a number of strong holes that explore the gentler (but still beautiful and interesting portions of the course). Then the magical march towards the ridge and that amazing greensite on 9 in front of the clubhouse begins with a short, quirky, pseudo redan 3 followed by an elegant but tricky short par 4.  Then the epic 9th begins an amazing stretch, not just because there are so many great holes, but because of the journey we take.  The gentle land is gone on 9.  Its fairway rolls epicly. Then we cross to a portion of the property (10-13) that serves as a wonderful change of pace.  10 gives a blind tee shot that asks the golfer to choose a blind wedge or a 4 iron in full view.  The terrain is truly dramatic.  Then we get a super refined little hole (11), a long open 4 (12) and then 13 is all about the angles.  And all this while we are making a counter clockwise loop back to the main property.  Then comes the dynamite stretch from 14-18.  There is variety, strategy ...... BUT to get back to main point (if I have any) the whole is FAR MORE than the sum of its parts to me.  Somehow 1+1 is not 2.  This is why I analogize to books or movies etc.  Each hole, each section (1-6) (7-9)(10-13)(14-18) is tremendous and there is great diversity, but what clinches it for me (I think) is the ultimate rythm and unity when all the pieces are put together. 

[Jeff Taylor]

Nothing like great light to accentuate the art in life. Jonathan's light was better.

[John Kavanaugh]

When is someone going to have the courage to admit that Pine Valley is no longer one of the top courses in the world for three reasons. Trees, trees and just a whole lot of trees.

[Jeff Taylor]

How about now?
Maybe you should check out Scotland.

[Mark Chaplin]

JK - where does tree encroachment adversely affect play at Pine Valley? The name also suggests the site was wooded to start with.

Steve - RMC is one fantastic golf course with a wonderful mix of holes. It is a great pity there isn't a second true three shotter but that isn't the fault of RMGC. We played it in the President's Cup guise and the opening holes are possibly the strongest stretch of great holes on the planet. I've yet to play Shinnecock but should correct that before too long.

[Joel_Stewart]

Does anyone know exactly what C&C are doing at Shinnecock?

[Gib_Papazian]

Mark

At P.V. there are quite a few examples where the aesthetic organization of the hole could be improved by some trimming or removal. I feel that #1 has too many trees adjacent to the greensite (last time I was there). Pine Valley's best defense - since it is not a particularly hard course for a good ball striker - is psychological terror.

On #1, you have a flat fairway that simply unfolds seamlessly into an enormous putting surface. Easy shot, right? Just pop a driver out there on a wide fairway and hit a knock-down 5-iron to the middle of the green. Except that a miss to the left or right is down a deep embankment to the depths of certain snowman.

So why are there so many trees visually blocking the trouble on both sides of the green? The shot is 100 times easier if you do not have to look at the guillotine when you draw the club back. That is why I had no difficulty breaking 80 my first time - the overgrowth often hides the most intimidating feature of the hole and makes it much easier to play your normal game. The 2nd time is a bit different however . . . .

Next time you come down the 13th fairway - arguably the outstanding hole on what some believe the best course on the planet - have a look at the grove of trees to the left. There are three or four beautifully placed bunkers sitting beneath the thicket. These would be back in play - and immeasurably improve the overall aesthetic presentation - simply by removing a bunch of scrub pines.

I make the same observation of #17 - which cluttered with too many trees. The strategy and geometry of the hole is impossibly elegant, yet the crisp simplicity of the arrangement is buried in a thicket of random bird-shit trees. It really detracts and distracts - in the same way that #4 at Olympic is a brilliant hole reduced to a thoughtless mess due to senseless rough lines that adhere to poorly placed trees.

My first trip to the Magic Windmill was in 1987 and you cannot imagine what a horrific mess of scrub and trees it was when compared to the dazzling nirvana we have today. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a hole at Shinnecock that needs a chainsaw, which might bolster the argument that it surpasses Pine Valley. NGLA stands alone in my mind, but I'll be the first to admit that like P.V., the PGA Tour Circus Animals would rip it apart.       

   

[Mike Hendren]

The Shinnecock Hills / National Golf Links of America debate is among the most interesting conducted on this website.  I continue to believe it was just a dream that I played them both a few short years ago.

One cannot help but fall helplessly in love with National Golf Links of America.  Only a man without a soul sporting a very low handicap would subordinate its greatness to Shinnecock Hills.   That said, I cannot fathom that there is a better golf course in this country than Shinnecock Hills.  Perhaps a dozen or so are arguably its equal - I'll leave that list to others.   

All I know is that, moreso than anywhere else I've played, Shinnecock Hills made me wish I was a much better golfer.

Bogey

[Gib_Papazian]

Bogey,

I don't know that Shinnecock is a particularly punishing golf course as much as relentlessly demanding. It is certainly the "fairest" I've played in that - unlike P.V. - there is really no place out there, aside from a complete miss, where you can hit the ball with no hope of recovery.

It is a bit like playing chess against a computer. Shinnecock has a counter-move no matter what gambit you choose. There are no "or else" shots on the golf course (hit it here "or else"), just a continuous series of increasingly maddening choices depending on how much derring-do you've got in your bag. It is easy to hit the ball reasonably well and not make a par for six or seven holes in a row. Screw up at Pine Valley and they grease up the rope, where at Shinnecock, it is water torture . . . . . drip drip drip until you beg for the rope instead.

By contrast, NGLA is like playing Donkey Kong, with C.B. Macdonald atop the grid, gleefully rolling barrels. You've got a chance to beat the game if you an out-think the gorilla because NGLA is more of a mental challenge. There is no hiding your deficiencies and living by your wits at Shinnecock. Either you got the chops to jam with the big boys, or you don't. Not much in between unless breaking 90 is your goal.   

[Sean_A]

Bogey,

I don't know that Shinnecock is a particularly punishing golf course as much as relentlessly demanding. It is certainly the "fairest" I've played in that - unlike P.V. - there is really no place out there, aside from a complete miss, where you can hit the ball with no hope of recovery.

It is a bit like playing chess against a computer. Shinnecock has a counter-move no matter what gambit you choose. There are no "or else" shots on the golf course (hit it here "or else"), just a continuous series of increasingly maddening choices depending on how much derring-do you've got in your bag. It is easy to hit the ball reasonably well and not make a par for six or seven holes in a row. Screw up at Pine Valley and they grease up the rope, where at Shinnecock, it is water torture . . . . . drip drip drip until you beg for the rope instead.

By contrast, NGLA is like playing Donkey Kong, with C.B. Macdonald atop the grid, gleefully rolling barrels. You've got a chance to beat the game if you an out-think the gorilla because NGLA is more of a mental challenge. There is no hiding your deficiencies and living by your wits at Shinnecock. Either you got the chops to jam with the big boys, or you don't. Not much in between unless breaking 90 is your goal.   

Sounds like a long winded way of saying Shinny is a championship (as in a proper championship course) course while NGLA is a bit more balanced in the physical and noggin' departments.  NGLA has always sounded like the course I would enjoy more. 

Ciao 

[Gib_Papazian]

Sean,

I take 500 words to clear my throat.

In the future, I'll try to spare you my wind and strive to be pithy and brief.

Thank you for summing up my thoughts.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I take 500 words to clear my throat.

In the future, I'll try to spare you my wind and strive to be pithy and brief.

Thank you for summing up my thoughts.

Gib

Anything to oblige you. 

Here is hoping you have a happy and memorable New Year.

Ciao

[JMEvensky]

Sean,

I take 500 words to clear my throat.

In the future, I'll try to spare you my wind and strive to be pithy and brief.

Thank you for summing up my thoughts.

Was it Pascal who apologized for not having time to write a short note?

Gib,from an admirer in the cheap seats,stay long winded.

[David Davis]

Guys,

I don't want to jack this thread or create my own on this one topic but what's the significance of the Dutch windmill at NGLA?

Thanks

[Mike Hendren]

Shinncock Hills does not suffer fools.

National Golf Links of America loves them anyway.

Bogey, A Fool

[Jeff Taylor]

It used to be a water tower. A  member suggested a windmill. Macdonald had it built and sent him the bill.
I believe that is the way it went. Others can validate or correct.

[Gib_Papazian]

David,

If you examine the NGLA logo, you'll see two figures holding what look to be golf clubs. I won't go into the whole history, but suffice to say the logo was taken off Dutch Delft tiles, depicting a game - similar to golf - they play(ed) called Kolven. I think the spelling is correct, but it has been a few years since we wrote the chapter.

The Windmill - or so the story goes - was originally the bright idea of a member who thought it would be a nice cover for the club water tower - suggested to Macdonald and Judge Morgan O'Brien; those two essentially ran the club as a not-so benevolent dictatorship.

Liking the idea, Macdonald ordered the Windmill (capitalized because it is a sentient being to me) constructed and slipped the bill into the member's locker.

Fearing the wrath of God, he paid it without a whimper.

[Tim Martin]

Jordan...you are not alone.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51316.0.html

Sean Leary- Now that you have played SH I would be interested in your take.

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