[Sven Nilsen]

I couldn't see it initially, but when I right-clicked and selected "Open image in a new tab" I could see the entire image and the Doak's Asshole bunker.

What do you think of it? I imagine many of us here would smile and ask to have our picture taken when hitting out of there!

I see what you did there.

[Eric Smith]

I couldn't see it initially, but when I right-clicked and selected "Open image in a new tab" I could see the entire image and the Doak's Asshole bunker.

What do you think of it? I imagine many of us here would smile and ask to have our picture taken when hitting out of there!

I see what you did there.

What did you see?

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

Thanks for the tour.  I will be happily giving a lot of tours there in three weeks' time at the Grand Opening, and the Renaissance Cup immediately afterward.

I am happy that the finishing holes for once are not criticized as weak.  The routing worked out to their benefit this time.

Mike Sweeney is correct that the 18th hole is loosely inspired by the 18th at Stonewall.  Bill Coore had designed a hole originally [which would have followed from what's now Blue #1] that played from my landing area down to the green, and then across the pond to where the practice green stands now.  But, we had no idea what the clubhouse was going to look like at that point, and both of us were concerned that because of the size, getting up too close to it would distract from the golf hole.  So, I shifted the green to the other side of the water, and the tee back down the hill.

The key was to plan the 17th hole to play through that thicket of trees that went across just short of the cross-bunkers.  That was a very thick area, and it was a leap of faith to plan on going through it and dealing with the drainage issues there and try to visualize a hole we really couldn't see.  But, as it turns out, the 17th is one of the best holes on the course, thanks to Eric's and Mike's and Bruce's hard work.  I love that 17th green -- which is all Eric's, I didn't say or do a thing to it.

[Mark Saltzman]

I am happy that the finishing holes for once are not criticized as weak.  The routing worked out to their benefit this time.

Tom, is this a common criticism of RGD?

The last three holes at Tumble Creek are no pushover and 18 is the toughest(?) hole on the course.

The last three at Ballyneal are a difficult stretch and I found 17 to be the hardest on the course.

The finish at Commonground is ball-busting.

Finishes at RCCC and Sebonack are both moderate -- certainly not easy.

I can't remember how Beechtree finished.

[Tom_Doak]

Beechtree finished with a short par-3, a short par-4, and a short par-5.  All three were good holes, but 14 and 15 were the highlight.  And that's often been the case for my courses (High Pointe and Lost Dunes and Pacific Dunes, too), because the more exciting land was out away from the clubhouse.

It's certainly not always true but because the ones I listed above had a bit of a pattern, it became a knock on my work that I got sick of hearing.

Personally, I don't really favor courses which build to a difficult and spectacular finish.  I'm not really into disaster movies, either.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Personally, I don't really favor courses which build to a difficult and spectacular finish.  I'm not really into disaster movies, either.

As we all know (I think), one of the great things about golf, and one of the game's greatest attractions, is the remarkable diversity of courses throughout the world. It's not like tennis or hockey, game's where you play within the same dimensions no matter where you are.

Imagine if every golf course had a difficult and spectacular finish. That would be stupid.

[Bill_McBride]

Beechtree finished with a short par-3, a short par-4, and a short par-5.  All three were good holes, but 14 and 15 were the highlight.  And that's often been the case for my courses (High Pointe and Lost Dunes and Pacific Dunes, too), because the more exciting land was out away from the clubhouse.

It's certainly not always true but because the ones I listed above had a bit of a pattern, it became a knock on my work that I got sick of hearing.

Personally, I don't really favor courses which build to a difficult and spectacular finish.  I'm not really into disaster movies, either.

As a short hitter, I have always found the 18th at Pacific Dunes to be the hardest par 5 finisher I've played, much harder to par than Pebble's finisher. 

[Tom_Doak]

As a short hitter, I have always found the 18th at Pacific Dunes to be the hardest par 5 finisher I've played, much harder to par than Pebble's finisher. 

Bill:  It's a hard hole, yes, but have you ever been to the Yale University course?

I never thought of the finish at Pacific Dunes as being that hard, and several people have commented that they thought it was a bit of a letdown ... though I guess that could be more because it is furthest away from the Pacific.  Actually, now that I think about it, the 16th and 17th are two of the hardest holes on the course [though neither is very long] and the 18th no pushover.

[Bill_McBride]

As a short hitter, I have always found the 18th at Pacific Dunes to be the hardest par 5 finisher I've played, much harder to par than Pebble's finisher. 

Bill:  It's a hard hole, yes, but have you ever been to the Yale University course?

I never thought of the finish at Pacific Dunes as being that hard, and several people have commented that they thought it was a bit of a letdown ... though I guess that could be more because it is furthest away from the Pacific.  Actually, now that I think about it, the 16th and 17th are two of the hardest holes on the course [though neither is very long] and the 18th no pushover.

The 18th at Yale is a par 6 or 7. 

The Pac Dunes finisher has been tough for me because of poor playing decisions.  The left side is appealing as the line of instinct but I got in terrible trouble there the first time I played it in 2001.  Since then in numerous trips I have fanned the tee shot way right and short.  From there the eventual approach shot is always played with too much club over (hopefully) that gaping bunker.  Bogey is usually a good score. 

[Cliff Hamm]

This is a bit OT but will post it here as it seems appropriate.  Have a tee time for the end of February on the Red course.  After reading this thread decided to play the Blue.  I do thank Tom for his input and thought it made sense to play a course where the architect has given his insight.  Thanks, Tom.

Anyway, in order to change my tee time/ course have called and left messages over the last 3 days or so as no one answers.  Sent an email.  No reply.  This is not the way to run a destination course.  Can't wait to play, but.....

[Tom_Doak]

This is a bit OT but will post it here as it seems appropriate.  Have a tee time for the end of February on the Red course.  After reading this thread decided to play the Blue.  I do thank Tom for his input and thought it made sense to play a course where the architect has given his insight.  Thanks, Tom.

Anyway, in order to change my tee time/ course have called and left messages over the last 3 days or so as no one answers.  Sent an email.  No reply.  This is not the way to run a destination course.  Can't wait to play, but.....

Cliff:

I'm supposed to talk to the director of golf tomorrow [assuming I can get through!] and I'll ask what's up with the phones.

As for choosing between the courses ... I am surprised that people are choosing between them.  I'd assumed that nearly all visitors would come and play both courses on their first trip and see which one they like better ... and that it will be hard to choose.  I'm happy to hear you are playing my course, but why wouldn't you try both?

[Joe Bausch]

This is a bit OT but will post it here as it seems appropriate.  Have a tee time for the end of February on the Red course.  After reading this thread decided to play the Blue.  I do thank Tom for his input and thought it made sense to play a course where the architect has given his insight.  Thanks, Tom.

Anyway, in order to change my tee time/ course have called and left messages over the last 3 days or so as no one answers.  Sent an email.  No reply.  This is not the way to run a destination course.  Can't wait to play, but.....

Cliff:

I'm supposed to talk to the director of golf tomorrow [assuming I can get through!] and I'll ask what's up with the phones.

As for choosing between the courses ... I am surprised that people are choosing between them.  I'd assumed that nearly all visitors would come and play both courses on their first trip and see which one they like better ... and that it will be hard to choose.  I'm happy to hear you are playing my course, but why wouldn't you try both?

+1

Cliff,  I would ask you to show further patience with your desire to visit Steamsong.  I visited there recently and was tremendously impressed with the operation at such a young age.  Every staff member was eager to show off the site.  And it really is a place to be seen.  

I'm confident they'll work out whatever kinks exist early on, although I can't say I saw any of them on my 2.5 day visit.

P.S.  I think you might regret not playing both courses.  Trust me on that opinion. 

[Cliff Hamm]

This is a bit OT but will post it here as it seems appropriate.  Have a tee time for the end of February on the Red course.  After reading this thread decided to play the Blue.  I do thank Tom for his input and thought it made sense to play a course where the architect has given his insight.  Thanks, Tom.

Anyway, in order to change my tee time/ course have called and left messages over the last 3 days or so as no one answers.  Sent an email.  No reply.  This is not the way to run a destination course.  Can't wait to play, but.....

Cliff:

I'm supposed to talk to the director of golf tomorrow [assuming I can get through!] and I'll ask what's up with the phones.

As for choosing between the courses ... I am surprised that people are choosing between them.  I'd assumed that nearly all visitors would come and play both courses on their first trip and see which one they like better ... and that it will be hard to choose.  I'm happy to hear you are playing my course, but why wouldn't you try both?

It isn't cheap.  I do spend the winter in Florida and it's 'only' a 2 hour drive so I will play the Red course in the next year.  Actually, after playing the Blue I just might hang around and play the Red the next day

I am not a suck up, but how great is it that the the architect responds to your post. Thanks, Tom.

[Bryan Izatt]

I'm planning on playing next week and had also decided on the Blue course, because so far I've liked Tom's courses better than C&C's. 

I'd love to play both, but if it's $350 for both in a day, then it's a definite no go.

[Mark Saltzman]

Scorecard information added to opening post.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Scorecard information added to opening post.

Mark,

I bet down there in Florida they have no idea that the font is exactly the same as Labatt Blue beer here in Canada, eh

[Jud_T]

One thing I just noticed.  Both courses are Par 72 with 4 3's and 4 5's.  Was this at the clients urging or was that the way the routings just turned out best?

[Tom_Doak]

One thing I just noticed.  Both courses are Par 72 with 4 3's and 4 5's.  Was this at the clients urging or was that the way the routings just turned out best?

That was just the way it turned out.

Might have had a little to do with the client wanting the courses to be long, but honestly I don't remember us going back to try and get more length by finding another par-5.  I guess I did change #16 and #17 and make 17 Blue into a par 5 when I made the change to 18 described above ... all of the other par-5's are just the way they were conceived to begin with.

[Eric Smith]

Bump for Bogey while waiting for Joe.

Nasty out there today.

[Mark Saltzman]

Dr Kleins raters notebook of the blue:

http://mobile.golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/16/raters-notebook-streamsong-blue-course/

Interesting that he rates it 7.3 but his categories average 8.0.

[Carl Nichols]

Dr Kleins raters notebook of the blue:

http://mobile.golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/16/raters-notebook-streamsong-blue-course/

Interesting that he rates it 7.3 but his categories average 8.0.

More than a full point lower than Trump Scotland, IIRC.  And .2 points lower than the Red Course. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dr Kleins raters notebook of the blue:

http://mobile.golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/16/raters-notebook-streamsong-blue-course/

Interesting that he rates it 7.3 but his categories average 8.0.

From  GW's Rater's Handbook:

Remember that the scale is not linear. Scores of 7-10 are reserved for top 100 golf courses. Scores of 4-6 are reserved for the next
approximately 500 courses. Scores of less than 4 are reserved for the lower 80 percent of courses in the country and indicate that the rater believes that the course does not belong on the ballot. The overall vote is not an average of the individual criteria ratings. A rater could, theoretically, give all 5s to the individual rating categories and a 7 to the overall course score.

[Mike Sweeney]

From  GW's Rater's Handbook:

Remember that the scale is not linear. Scores of 7-10 are reserved for top 100 golf courses. Scores of 4-6 are reserved for the next
approximately 500 courses. Scores of less than 4 are reserved for the lower 80 percent of courses in the country and indicate that the rater believes that the course does not belong on the ballot. The overall vote is not an average of the individual criteria ratings. A rater could, theoretically, give all 5s to the individual rating categories and a 7 to the overall course score.

Dr Jim,

Thanks for posting the Shivas-like lawyer disclaimer that basically covers Brad Klein for everything  , but if you can find ONE member of the Hotchkiss mathematics department to explain this, I will pay for John Kavanaugh's membership to Hotchkiss Golf Course next year. 

For the record, I rated The Doak/Blue at Doak scale = 8 !!

[Tom_Doak]

Dr Kleins raters notebook of the blue:

http://mobile.golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/16/raters-notebook-streamsong-blue-course/

Interesting that he rates it 7.3 but his categories average 8.0.

Frankly, I don't think Brad (or anyone in charge of any panel) should tell the panelists what number he would assign to a new course, before they've seen it themselves.

But, I'm not surprised his final score is lower than the average score he gave.  He obviously peeked at where an 8.0 would put the course in the top 100 classic list, and decided he'd better not pronounce it that good that fast.

[Ben Sims]

Dr Kleins raters notebook of the blue:

http://mobile.golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/16/raters-notebook-streamsong-blue-course/

Interesting that he rates it 7.3 but his categories average 8.0.

Frankly, I don't think Brad (or anyone in charge of any panel) should tell the panelists what number he would assign to a new course, before they've seen it themselves.

But, I'm not surprised his final score is lower than the average score he gave.  He obviously peeked at where an 8.0 would put the course in the top 100 classic list, and decided he'd better not pronounce it that good that fast.

Mark,

GW ratings are not an average of categories like GD. There's nothing to question here mathematically.

Tom,

You've touched on one of my top 3 or so dislikes about the ratings/rankings.  It's one thing to critically evaluate a golf course and slap a number on it.  That's not so bad in my opinion.  Where it gets weird is when that number gets revised once a rater sees where it falls on the list.  Either one places a rating on a course using the list as the accepted baseline, or they critically evaluate it without regard to the list. I don't think you can have it both ways.  

I'm not implying--as you did--that's what Brad did in this specific case.  But it no doubt happens.

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