[Bryan Izatt]

For whatever it's worth regarding the wind, the wind roses from Orlando airport (which isn't too far away) show that the wind direction and speed varies quite a lot.  The charts at windfinder are based on daytime winds averaged over the last two years.  They describe a dominant wind direction for each month but it is by no means an exclusive direction. 

http://www.windfinder.com/windstats/windstatistic_orlando_airport.htm

Tom must have been there mostly in January - the only month where westerlies are dominant.  In February north winds dominate, while the winds are from the east in March, April, May and June, then southerly in July and August, then east to north-east and north through September, October and November and then back to east in December.

For those who have played there recently, how fast and fim does it play?  Having played a few rounds in south Florida over the last week I am reminded of how slow and soft courses down here play after the overseed and subsequent watering.  I assume that Streamsong is overseeded and probably therefore over-watered at this time of year.  Does the course play longer than listed because of soft conditions?

[Kyle Harris]

Bryan:

We have not overseeded anything.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan:

We have not overseeded anything.

That's good.  Does it play firm and fast?

[John Kirk]

I would think it's a little early in the course grow-in to produce fast, firm playing conditions.  I imagine it takes two or three years before the grass is mature enough.  Isn't that about right?

[Carl Nichols]

Most airports have the follwing configurations.

SW to NE - NE to SW
SE to NW - NW to SE
E to W    - W to E

Isn't that 75% of the options? 

[Mark Saltzman]

Bryan:

We have not overseeded anything.

That's good.  Does it play firm and fast?

Bryan, it's not Ballyneal but the fairways and greens are firm enough to allow the ground game to be played. The difference is that it's not always required. Along with the courses on the sand belt near Vero (Mcarthur, Johns Island, etc) and Pine Tree, Streamsong is the firmest course in Florida I've seen.

[Tom_Doak]

For whatever it's worth regarding the wind, the wind roses from Orlando airport (which isn't too far away) show that the wind direction and speed varies quite a lot.  The charts at windfinder are based on daytime winds averaged over the last two years.  They describe a dominant wind direction for each month but it is by no means an exclusive direction. 

http://www.windfinder.com/windstats/windstatistic_orlando_airport.htm

Tom must have been there mostly in January - the only month where westerlies are dominant.  In February north winds dominate, while the winds are from the east in March, April, May and June, then southerly in July and August, then east to north-east and north through September, October and November and then back to east in December.

For those who have played there recently, how fast and fim does it play?  Having played a few rounds in south Florida over the last week I am reminded of how slow and soft courses down here play after the overseed and subsequent watering.  I assume that Streamsong is overseeded and probably therefore over-watered at this time of year.  Does the course play longer than listed because of soft conditions?

Bryan:

Well your assumptions about overseeding and watering and firmness were completely wrong, and let me add that your assumptions about the timing of my visits was in error, too.  We started work on the course in August of 2010 and grassed the last hole in the early fall of 2011, and in that time I visited the site in August, October, December, January, April and June ... so I've seen a bunch. 

It's about 80 miles to the Orlando airport and I expect the winds might be a bit different.  I have seen the wind from the north and east, too, but not as often as from the west.  Doesn't matter, though ... there is plenty of openness and variety to deal with the wind from any quarter, and there are not forced carries of any real magnitude for anyone playing an appropriate tee, even into a gale.

[Tom_Doak]

As for 13-15, which I promised to discuss earlier:

The 13th was not there when we started.  In fact, it was about the only place on the property where Bill Coore seemed a bit stumped with his routing ... one version of his original 18-hole plan had a par-5 starting from this green and playing around to the 14th green on the Red course, but it didn't really work because you would drive down into the low area left of the tee. 

What was different "before" is that the left side of the hole was the same elevation as the right, so that you couldn't see the lake to the left at all from the tee.  Plus, if we'd left it, you could have driven your cart right up to a very dangerous bank, and wound up swimming with the alligators.  So we cut sand out of the left side for three or four days, and took it to fill up the fairway on #12 Blue and the tees for #15 Red, both of which needed the sand.  I thought it turned out pretty well considering what we started with.

On the 14th, we had to make more room for the tee shot by filling in the corner of the lake ... which turned out to be MUCH deeper in that spot than we'd anticipated.  Originally there was a ridge between the 15th fairway and 14th fairway and then a bit of room and then a very steep bank down to the water ... by cutting that ridge away we got the fill we needed. 

However, the above cut did change the look of the 15th from the tee and give fewer reference points on where to place the tee shot.  Fifteen was a completely natural hole that Bill had found early on -- fairway and green contours are pretty much as they we found them, all we did was clear grass out of the blowouts.  On top of that, to our surprise, after the hole was built a pond formed on the right side of the hole, and when it was drained the hole got even wider on that side than it had been, so that the "centerline" of the hole visually is further to the right than it used to be.  I still prefer to aim left-center off the tee and stay up on top of the fairway to hit straight across the ridge short of the green, because that's how I always visualized the hole, but I'm not really sure if it's better to play it that way or to try and sneak down the right side.

[Ben Sims]

Maybe I'm late to the party, but Mr. Harris can help me out.  Has anyone mentioned the natural tendency for most new courses (once the grass has grown in enough and been cut appropriately for play) to play more firm? 

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

Yes, it appears my assumptions were wrong.  Sorry, I missed the emoticon on you only visiting in January.  I really didn't think that was the case.  What the wind roses indicate is that there really isn't a prevailing wind, as Kyle has indicated, although in each month there is a direction that is more common but not enough to be considered prevailing.

Re the overseeding assumption, the pictures make the course look reasonably green, hence my assumption.  I have played other courses in the Orlando area that weren't overseeded and the dormant bermuda was quite tan, unlike Mark's pictures.  What kind of grass was used? Does it retain this level of green year round?

I also (maybe mistakenly) assumed that the site is sand based which should produce firm conditions from the beginning, shouldn't it? All new greens that I've experienced have been more firm in the early years and then soften up as the organic content increases.

In any event, I was hoping for more firm and fast conditions that you normally find in FL and I could care less about overseeding or cosmetic coloring.

[Tom_Doak]

What kind of grass was used? Does it retain this level of green year round?

I also (maybe mistakenly) assumed that the site is sand based which should produce firm conditions from the beginning, shouldn't it? All new greens that I've experienced have been more firm in the early years and then soften up as the organic content increases.

Maybe I posted the answer in a different thread, but the entire course is 419 Bermuda, except for the greens which are Mini-Verde ultradwarf bermuda.  It will probably go off-color for a month or two in the winter, but not completely dormant except in the occasional cold winter.

It is as sandy as any site you've ever seen, and that does help it stay firm ... though it gets softer in the summer when the heavy rains come.    It has been playing VERY firm for the past year, more so than a typical new course; but you are correct that will be harder to maintain once more thatch has built up in the root zone.  All I can say is that the client and the staff are more committed to keeping it firm than at any course in Florida I know of.

[Mark Saltzman]

As for 13-15, which I promised to discuss earlier:

The 13th was not there when we started.  In fact, it was about the only place on the property where Bill Coore seemed a bit stumped with his routing ... one version of his original 18-hole plan had a par-5 starting from this green and playing around to the 14th green on the Red course, but it didn't really work because you would drive down into the low area left of the tee. 

What was different "before" is that the left side of the hole was the same elevation as the right, so that you couldn't see the lake to the left at all from the tee.  Plus, if we'd left it, you could have driven your cart right up to a very dangerous bank, and wound up swimming with the alligators.  So we cut sand out of the left side for three or four days, and took it to fill up the fairway on #12 Blue and the tees for #15 Red, both of which needed the sand.  I thought it turned out pretty well considering what we started with.

On the 14th, we had to make more room for the tee shot by filling in the corner of the lake ... which turned out to be MUCH deeper in that spot than we'd anticipated.  Originally there was a ridge between the 15th fairway and 14th fairway and then a bit of room and then a very steep bank down to the water ... by cutting that ridge away we got the fill we needed. 

However, the above cut did change the look of the 15th from the tee and give fewer reference points on where to place the tee shot.  Fifteen was a completely natural hole that Bill had found early on -- fairway and green contours are pretty much as they we found them, all we did was clear grass out of the blowouts.  On top of that, to our surprise, after the hole was built a pond formed on the right side of the hole, and when it was drained the hole got even wider on that side than it had been, so that the "centerline" of the hole visually is further to the right than it used to be.  I still prefer to aim left-center off the tee and stay up on top of the fairway to hit straight across the ridge short of the green, because that's how I always visualized the hole, but I'm not really sure if it's better to play it that way or to try and sneak down the right side.

Tom,

All of this is fascinating, thank you for posting.

As for playing left on 15 being the ideal way to play the hole?  I'd say you're nuts, but who am I to tell you how to play YOUR hole!

[Mike Viscusi]

Re: #13 - Do tee shots that carry the right side fairway bunker funnel to the green?  It looks like there might be a shoulder there that slopes towards the green from Mark's last photo but it's tough to tell.  If not, is it a straightforward up and down from over there?

[Tom_Doak]

Re: #13 - Do tee shots that carry the right side fairway bunker funnel to the green?  It looks like there might be a shoulder there that slopes towards the green from Mark's last photo but it's tough to tell.  If not, is it a straightforward up and down from over there?

Mike:  No, there's no funneling.  The right side of the green falls away about 3-4 feet in short grass,  It's meant to be like the 6th at Pacific Dunes ... a long, narrow target where you don't want to miss to the side.  But it's not as severe to the right as the sixth at Pacific.

[Cristian]

Does anyone else think that the course has a MacKenzie look to it ?

Yes, I do, especially the bunkers. To be more specific; on quite some holes I find them looking to be inspired by Kingston Heath type bunkering (or RM), although I have only seen any of these courses from pictures. Coincidence? or perhaps fitting as both grass types and soil are similar?

[Tom_Doak]

Does anyone else think that the course has a MacKenzie look to it ?

Yes, I do, especially the bunkers. To be more specific; on quite some holes I find them looking to be inspired by Kingston Heath type bunkering (or RM), although I have only seen any of these courses from pictures. Coincidence? or perhaps fitting as both grass types and soil are similar?

Is it only a coincidence that the one golf book I left in the apartment where Bruce and Eric and Mike McCartin were staying was Tom Ramsey's GREAT AUSTRALIAN GOLF HOLES ?

[Cristian]

Does anyone else think that the course has a MacKenzie look to it ?

Yes, I do, especially the bunkers. To be more specific; on quite some holes I find them looking to be inspired by Kingston Heath type bunkering (or RM), although I have only seen any of these courses from pictures. Coincidence? or perhaps fitting as both grass types and soil are similar?

Is it only a coincidence that the one golf book I left in the apartment where Bruce and Eric and Mike McCartin were staying was Tom Ramsey's GREAT AUSTRALIAN GOLF HOLES ?

So maybe coincidence does not exist; A fine source of inspiration though.

By the way, just ordered the book on Amazon, still available!

[Peter Pallotta]

Is it only a coincidence that the one golf book I left in the apartment where Bruce and Eric and Mike McCartin were staying was Tom Ramsey's GREAT AUSTRALIAN GOLF HOLES ?

I feel I've just entered by the secret side door some masonic-type society and been handed an elks hat and an aged parchment of sacred runes etched in magic ink that can only be read by a mid-summer's moon, every other leap year!

In other words: "So THAT'S how it works, huh?"

Peter

[Mark Saltzman]

The 16th is the longest par-3 on either course, playing uphill and able to stretch to over 250 yards.  A bunker eats into the green from the right side, and a series of short bunkers protect the top-shot from running onto the left portion of the green.  The land, green included, slope hard from the left and the back portion of the green slopes away, making a shot directly at the target a fool's errand.  Golfers choosing to play a shot landing short and left of the green will have more success.






The 17th has been called Renaissance Golf Design's best par-5 -- I don't agree, I think 10 at Rock Creek is their best -- but it is nonetheless an intriguing golf hole.  The tee shot is part penal, part strategic.  Golfers long enough to reach this 550 yard par-5 in two may choose to attempt the 260+ yard carry over the blowout on the right to find a speed-slot and a much preferred angle into the green.  Those looking to lay-up are well-served playing short of the left fairway bunker.




The second shot is an intimidating one, played over a series of diagonal bunkers.  After a good drive I was left with only 150 yards to carry the bunkers on the shortest line, but even from the fairway it is clear that this green is best approached from the right.  Playing right quickly increases the required carry yardage.

Looking at the picture below on the far right you will notice a Devil's Asshole-esque bunker behind a tree.  I've called this area Doak's Double Hazard!




The green is two-tiered, separated by steep diagonal ridge.




No shortage of yardage on the final three holes of the Blue, the 18th is an up and over par-4 that plays over 450 yards.  The ideal line is difficult to choose from the tee, but I am guessing I will not be the only one tempted to try and carry the single centre-line bunker at about 235 yards.




Successful tee shots will either end-up here, leaving ~200 yards into the green, or they will find the speed-slot to the bottom of the hill and leave only a mid-iron in the green.

[Ronald Montesano]

"Looking at the picture below on the far right you will notice a Devil's Asshole-esque bunker behind a tree.  I've called this area Doak's Double Hazard!"

I couldn't see it initially, but when I right-clicked and selected "Open image in a new tab" I could see the entire image and the Doak's Asshole bunker.

Or, you can go to the end of the pictures and use the horizontal slider bar. I just figured out that it's a one-slider-controls-all slider bar.

[Tim Passalacqua]

#16 reminds me of #3 at Pasatiempo.  Really long, uphill, over cross bunkers, and a running fade would be perfect with a fairway wood.  #16 looks challenging, but playable.  #3 at Pasatiempo is just brutal.  It looks like another great hole.

[Eric Smith]

I couldn't see it initially, but when I right-clicked and selected "Open image in a new tab" I could see the entire image and the Doak's Asshole bunker.

What do you think of it? I imagine many of us here would smile and ask to have our picture taken when hitting out of there!

[Ronald Montesano]

It's a fair penalty. If you miss that far right, you deserve the pit. The tree is overkill, in my estimation. Not a big fan of double hazards like that.

[Mike Sweeney]

I couldn't see it initially, but when I right-clicked and selected "Open image in a new tab" I could see the entire image and the Doak's Asshole bunker.

What do you think of it? I imagine many of us here would smile and ask to have our picture taken when hitting out of there!

I can't say that bunker will be seen much from memory.

This is a great final stretch and as mentioned earlier, the 18th reminded me of the 18th at Stonewall. Interesting that this course finishes "down" to the clubhouse and as mentioned earlier, I loved the placement of the clubhouse.

The 18th on The Red finishes on the "other" side of a ridge next to the practice area in the front area of the clubhouse.

Both finishing holes are great in my view.

[Mike Viscusi]

Mark,
Great tour, thanks for posting.  Where do you rank the Blue among other Doak/RGD courses you have played?

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