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Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
You are fast with the photos Mark.  I agree with most of what you've said except on the 2nd approach.  While the weekend's pins were very benign, put it in the front left at it will certainly grab your attention.  The best play appears to be hitting over the left fairway bunker to the open spot left of the green to leave a straightforward pitch.  If you are attacking from center fairway it's going to be very challenging.

4-7 was my favorite stretch on the course, with 6 as my favorite hole based on one play.  Possibly the coolest green on the course which can all be seen from the fairway, options to fly or run it up depending on the hole location.  Don't go long!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
"put it in the front left at it will certainly grab your attention."

What does this mean? I want to understand.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
The front of the green has a bunker which cuts into it about 8-10 yards.  The front right pin location isn't too terribly difficult, since you shoot straight down the green from the fairway.  However the front left of the green is a much tougher angle from the fairway, since you have to carry the front bunker and anything long or slightly left will find the left greenside bunker  Also, there is a pronounced mound behind the bunker, making any putt coming from the middle or right portions of the green very difficult.

If you can play your second shot to the left of the green, you will have an open target, with contours feedding the ball towards the hole instead of repelling away.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
The front of the green has a bunker which cuts into it about 8-10 yards.  The front right pin location isn't too terribly difficult, since you shoot straight down the green from the fairway.  However the front left of the green is a much tougher angle from the fairway, since you have to carry the front bunker and anything long or slightly left will find the left greenside bunker  Also, there is a pronounced mound behind the bunker, making any putt coming from the middle or right portions of the green very difficult.

If you can play your second shot to the left of the green, you will have an open target, with contours feedding the ball towards the hole instead of repelling away.

Pete, good point! I had not considered that. In fact, I was confused by the placement of that fairway bunker 80 (?) yards short of the green on the left.  I guess I'll have to go back and take another look.

Interesting that 6 was your favorite hole.  It was my least favorite of the short par-4s, though it had some seriously tough competition.  1 and 13 are exceptional golf holes.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 7th plays 190 yards from the back tees and the longer the tee played, the more difficult the angle.  As mentioned earlier, some will be critical of the routing choice here as the golfer leaves his bag at the forward tee, walks to the green, and then retraces his steps.  I am guessing this was not an easy choice for Doak, but an all-world green site is difficult to pass up.






The green is filled with broad internal contours and falls from right to left with the land.  Any shot landing on the left 1/4 of the green runs the risk of funnelling off the putting surface, through a run-off and into the hazard.  Whereas the Blue Course seems to emphasize 'look easy, play hard,' the Red Course emphasizes the opposite, regularly offering saving bunkers and containment contouring that makes the course play easier than it looks.




The 8th is a long par-4, but playing downwind and downhill it plays easier than the yardage indicates.  Golfers playing left of the centreline bunker are rewarded with a much preferred angle of approach.






The 9th is a 575 yard par-5 that plays back into the prevailing wind.  The tee shot reminds me of the 17th at Tillinghast's Somerset Hills in that the golfer is tempted to play as far right as possible, though following this temptation can get the golfer in trouble.




Lay-up locations will be dictated by pin position.  A lay-up well to the right offers easier access to this back pin position.




The green banks hard from right to left, allowing the thinking golfer to access difficult to reach pin positions by using the backboard.


Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Did you miss your approach on nine? That's outside your normal range (smiley face).

Do you think that Tom had other options for the 7th and said "screw it, we're building this one"? I know I could ask him, but I wonder if you saw any other possibilities. Is missing short (in the neck) death or does the ball hang up for a chip/pitch?

Can you come in from the right on #8 and try to pitch and putt for par? Any bank/trundle options over there?

Backboard? Sideboard on #9 green? That drive on #9 is breathtaking and heart stopping.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike Sweeney

I would be curious to hear Tom's thought on the place of the pond and green combination:



As Mark noted, the left side is the preferred side to play. While the pond is short of the green by 30-40 yards, it does turn that angle into an aerial shot. My thought is if you thread the left side off the drive, you should be rewarded with a shot that can be run into the green on this longer hole?

On 9 I pushed a ball right over the bunker, but we could not find it. I would like to have another shot at the hole and strategy was hard to determine on the first play. I think I will like thr hole more on the second play now that I can see it in my head.

Patrick_Mucci

Mark,

I'm puzzled by your comment on # 9 and the comparison to the drive on # 17 at Somerset Hills where you say you have to drive as far right as possible.

Are you sure you've got the right hole at SH ?
# 17 is the downhill par 4

Does anyone else think that the course has a MacKenzie look to it ?

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,

I'm puzzled by your comment on # 9 and the comparison to the drive on # 17 at Somerset Hills where you say you have to drive as far right as possible.

Are you sure you've got the right hole at SH ?
# 17 is the downhill par 4


Pat, here is what I wrote:

The tee shot reminds me of the 17th at Tillinghast's Somerset Hills in that the golfer is tempted to play as far right as possible, though following this temptation can get the golfer in trouble.

The correct play is not to drive as far right as possible, but that is the temptation.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Did you miss your approach on nine? That's outside your normal range (smiley face).

A lovely 7-iron using the sideboard.  Made the putt for my second birdie in a row.  Easy game!

Do you think that Tom had other options for the 7th and said "screw it, we're building this one"? I know I could ask him, but I wonder if you saw any other possibilities.

I'm not sure.  The only thing I considered was switching 7 Blue with 16 Red (which is left of 7 Blue).  It would make both 17 Red and 8 Blue considerably longer, and change the angle on 8 Blue, but I thought it could work.  The biggest issue would be people playing the wrong hole!

Is missing short (in the neck) death or does the ball hang up for a chip/pitch?

The land short tilts leftward.  Landing there should be safe, probably will collect to the left a bit, though it depends the shot shape and tee played from.

Can you come in from the right on #8 and try to pitch and putt for par? Any bank/trundle options over there?

I think an approach from the right would be brutal.  Likely would be from 175+ yards, downwind, requiring a carry over a bunker to a green angled to accept shots from the left.  A tee shot down the left leaves you thinking about birdie, but a tee shot down the right turns the hole into a par 4.5

Backboard? Sideboard on #9 green? That drive on #9 is breathtaking and heart stopping.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
BACK NINE, BACK NINE!!!!!!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holes 10-12 traverse the flattest part of the property.  Some may call these holes less interesting, but they are where I really started to love Streamsong Blue - they are interesting but not overdone - they show tremendous restraint.  The 10th hole is a 170-yard par-3 with tees that adjoin the fairway cut run-off from the 9th green.  A foreshortening bunker makes depth perception a problem.  The simple look of the hole may leave golfers shaking their heads when they walk off the 10th with bogies.






I think the 11th hole is tremendous.  It is hard to describe, but the blindness of the tee shot, the pair of small centreline bunkers on an expansive fairway, the sunken and wild green and especially the gentle rolls in the fairway (which reminded me of waves in an ocean) they all combined to make a subtle elegance.  I know that dirt/sand was moved everywhere, but this hole had a tremendous sense of place.  It felt like a hole that was meant to be there.  This 450-yard par-4 plays into the wind and is the definition of a half-par hole.








Walking of the 11th green in admiration of Doak's restraint, I was a little shocked on the 12th tee as the hole is the only one on the course where things look a little overdone.  There is a lot to take in on the 12th - bunkering right, a centreline mound at 220 yards, blind fairway (?) left of the mound, the green in view - all of it combine to make a cluttered visual.  Add to that the most boldly contoured green on the course and this may become a love/hate golf hole.
 







Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
How far from the tee is the water right on #12? I'm going to look at it on their site/google earth, but wonder if you can describe the playing of this hole in more depth?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
How far from the tee is the water right on #12? I'm going to look at it on their site/google earth, but wonder if you can describe the playing of this hole in more depth?

I had the same question. If you try to drive over that mound (which would seem possibly if the mound is only out about 220) then are you bringing the water into play on the right? If you lay back of it ll, how long of an approach are you looking at?

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
85 yards between mound and water. 315 to water from back tees, 300 from tees I played. Hole plays into the wind. reaching the water was not a consideration.

Kyle Harris

The 11th and 12th played into the wind the day you played.

They were downwind the day after.

No prevailing wind exists here.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 11th and 12th played into the wind the day you played.

They were downwind the day after.

No prevailing wind exists here.

Wow, really?! The course just made so much sense with the wind I had I just figured that's how it was intended to play. Please do your best to arrange the opposite wind for my next visit!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
While the wind does vary, we saw a lot of winds from the west when we were building the course and we did favor that wind in our thoughts a bit in the design of the Blue course.  Thus, I didn't worry too much about people driving into the water on 12, or that the second shot on 18 was so long.

Mark:  regarding restraint:  Sometimes you've gotta show restraint in using restraint, so that the client will let you use any at all.  At Pacific Dunes we had to jazz up #15 a bit so that Mr. Keiser would be okay with the restraint of #12.  At Streamsong we had to jazz up #12 a bit so that the client would be okay with the restraint of #11.

Patrick_Mucci

Looking at the dozen or more airports in the surrounding area, military, private and commercial, several wind patterns seem prevalent based on runway orientation.

Most airports have the follwing configurations.

SW to NE - NE to SW
SE to NW - NW to SE
E to W    - W to E

My guess is that most winds come from the SW or SE

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
While the wind does vary, we saw a lot of winds from the west when we were building the course and we did favor that wind in our thoughts a bit in the design of the Blue course.  Thus, I didn't worry too much about people driving into the water on 12, or that the second shot on 18 was so long.

Mark:  regarding restraint:  Sometimes you've gotta show restraint in using restraint, so that the client will let you use any at all.  At Pacific Dunes we had to jazz up #15 a bit so that Mr. Keiser would be okay with the restraint of #12.  At Streamsong we had to jazz up #12 a bit so that the client would be okay with the restraint of #11.

Thanks, Tom.  Very interesting.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 13th is the shortest par-4 on the back-nine playing 293 yards from the Black tees.  The fairway steadily narrows the nearer the green the golfer gets and is pinched by bunkers at 200 yards on the right and 240 yards on the left.  A noticeable in person (but not so noticeable in pictures) ridge splits the fairway between an upper (right) portion and a lower (left) portion.  I think the 13th is a very good short par-4, but if there is a criticism it is that I'm not convinced many golfers will be tempted to 'thread the needle'.  I tend to think this would always be a hybrid-SW hole for me, but repeat plays may prove that wrong.




Hooking a tee shot to the lower portion of the fairway is a big mistake, arguably worse than finding the fairway bunker on the right.  Shots going left will propel forward, leaving a 60-90 yard uphill pitch to a green that falls off long and right.




As seen from behind, the green tilts away from the line of play.




The 14th continues in the same direction as the 13th and despite its uphill nature will be reachable in two for longer hitters.  Those hoping to reach the green in two will find that challenging the fairway bunkers leaves a much preferred angle of approach.




A second shot from the left-centre of the fairway shows the hazards that lay between the golfer and the green.  The lay-up from here is simpler, though, and a single, small centreline bunker dictates decision-making on the second shot.




The 14th as seen from behind.  Another green that ties into the external contouring flawlessly.




There is some visual ambiguity on the 15th tee, with the ideal line not clear to this golfer.  With the wind blowing from the left and trouble to the right, it is a difficult tee shot for most righties.




The approach is very cool.  Playing to the left off the tee leaves a blind approach over an alps-like mound.  The green is shallow and wide and contoured like a biarritz green turned 90 degrees.  

« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 03:51:14 PM by Mark Saltzman »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Mark:

I'm trying to let others comment on these holes before I chime in, but I'll do so tomorrow.

These were the three holes that required the most construction work on the Blue course ... well, these three and the 12th, and maybe the 9th fairway.

Mike Sweeney

Pete closed me out on this hole, but it still was one of my favorites. At 510 yards from The Black tees you have to hit a cut off the tee and a draw on the approach to hit this in two. I only have one of those shots but the width gives you the option to tack your way into a great green.

Pin placement can provide lots of different options here.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike, based on your comments I am guessing you're a good club longer than me. How did you play 13? How would you play it next time?

Mike Sweeney

Mike, based on your comments I am guessing you're a good club longer than me. How did you play 13? How would you play it next time?

Pete and I typically have pretty good matches but he was crushing me at this point. I pushed a hybrid 3 right and Pete played safe to the lower left fairway. I scrambled out of the right 'native" and made par. Pete was short and I did get one back here.

On the other thread, I threw Tom Doak under the bus saying that the green was really not playable from the tee, especially with my draw. Found out on the second day from Kyle that the Caddy Master made an ace here already !

Freakin Doak pisses me off.  ;) :D 8)

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