The Unique and Stunning Beauty of Streamsong

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, can you speak to the decision to site the first tee on top of the dune (instead of say at the bottom of the dune)? Did you have any reservations or were/are you completely comfortable with it?

Mark:

Both Bill and I routed holes with a tee up top there.  The winning entry, the opening hole for the Blue course, is a pretty short par-4 and getting every yard we could out of it was important if we aren't going to have people waiting to try and drive the green [which some long hitters will undoubtedly do].  We did look at a back tee down left of #18 green that would make the green totally out of reach, but were concerned that some people would choose to play up #18 fairway from that angle instead.

Our hope is that people walking the course will be shuttled up the hill to the tee to start their rounds.  I've climbed up to the top of that hill more than almost anybody, and can attest that it's a tough hike to begin your day!

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

In routing the course, was there any concern that two of the wildest greens are back to back at 11 and 12?  Was that a product of the joint routing, or just how it worked out?

When we finalized the routing, I had no idea that those would wind up being two of the wildest greens.  But, no, it's not a concern.  The greens are pretty different from one another, and only certain hole locations make them "wild".

[Robert Thompson]

Having played both courses about a month ago, I'd say you'd have to work hard to lose a ball and it is a relatively straight forward driving course. I wouldn't say the difficulty is in driving -- the approaches are trickier.

Another Florida comment that baffles me. Florida courses are not wide open? You mean they are carved through all of those Florida woodlands? The first five holes of the Red look like a Coore-designed Florida course.

And, if Frank was shooting images from the tee box, they look penal as hell off the tee ball, EXACTLY what a tourist needs.

[Robert Thompson]

They brought in a caddy master from Bandon, so I think they are trying an aggressive caddy program.

Jeff,

I'm not familiar with the area, but perhaps it's location and newness preclude a strong caddy program.

Perhaps, with time and exposure, a good caddy program will be established

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

In routing the course, was there any concern that two of the wildest greens are back to back at 11 and 12?  Was that a product of the joint routing, or just how it worked out?

When we finalized the routing, I had no idea that those would wind up being two of the wildest greens.  But, no, it's not a concern.  The greens are pretty different from one another, and only certain hole locations make them "wild".

To add to this, these "wild" locations are also in different parts of the green, so most days one will be fairly mild than the other.

Plus, the difference in approach yardage to these two greens will likely be 30-50 yards for most players.

[Kris Shreiner]

Well at least they have settled on a caddie-master. As have so many other golf destinations, even the vaunted Bandon Dunes, they waited until the eleventh hour to get something in place and then hope for the best? They've shoveled millions at all other aspects of this project and then open basically clueless when it comes to the MOST important component of upscale golf destination success, besides course presentation... THE CADDIE DYNAMIC.

Don't let ANY of the PR spinnners from these places try to snow you...ALL of their caddie programs have been poor at the start. WHY? The reason is that NONE of them understand how important getting a competent program creator and mentor in place, WELL AHEAD of any proposed opening date, is to the success of their golf experience.

The caddie requirements at Streamsong will be FAR different than Bandon. Cart golf will be more of the norm, requiring the forecaddie for a significant percentage of caddie rounds. The hardest job in golf, DONE WELL, is squiring around four golfers on a "big-golf" type track....as any experienced caddie knows. It may not tax you physically to the degree a double-bag loop might, but in every other respect, you are DOUBLING the responsibilities. Even experienced caddies often struggle to deliver a quality fore-caddie experience unless they do it regularly and/or are properly motivated.

It will be quite windy at Streamsong on many prime days, and I don't care how wide those fairways are, even playing from the "correct tees," average golfers will be looking for balls out there. It's superb golf. A lot of subtlety on both courses... requiring astute counsel. Where are those caddies going to come from...thin air? There are some small towns around and Lakeland is about 30 minutes or so away, but you needed to be WAY out in front of this to develop the true "community-benefit" caddie program that all the pre-opening discussion has promised. Those younger caddies, in an area desperate for really opportunites for them, need significant TIME training to at least get to a competent level. Think that happened?

I had several discussions with key folks there, up to two years prior to now, who where made well-aware of what would be needed. Other destinations have had similar advance knowledge provided to them. They all continue to make the same serious oversight. Sadly, many who seek to profit from the game have lost their way on this score. They don't understand it and let misguided thrift get in the way of having it developed properly.

There are certain timeless elements that will always define great golf. The caddie dynamic is central to that. It has given the game its champions, differencemakers and MOST importantly, its human, often humorous soul... for centuries. It has largely been abandoned by the game. Many believe caddie golf is some unnecessary, fading relic of golf's past. They are mistaken. With each passing year of neglect, the game suffers a little more loss. The longer this continues, the sicker the game becomes.

Cheers,
Kris

[jeffwarne]

Well at least they have settled on a caddie-master. As have so many other golf destinations, even the vaunted Bandon Dunes, they waited until the eleventh hour to get something in place and then hope for the best? They've shoveled millions at all other aspects of this project and then open basically clueless when it comes to the MOST important component of upscale golf destination success, besides course presentation... THE CADDIE DYNAMIC.

Don't let ANY of the PR spinnners from these places try to snow you...ALL of their caddie programs have been poor at the start. WHY? The reason is that NONE of them understand how important getting a competent program creator and mentor in place, WELL AHEAD of any proposed opening date, is to the success of their golf experience.

The caddie requirements at Streamsong will be FAR different than Bandon. Cart golf will be more of the norm, requiring the forecaddie for a significant percentage of caddie rounds. The hardest job in golf, DONE WELL, is squiring around four golfers on a "big-golf" type track....as any experienced caddie knows. It may not tax you physically to the degree a double-bag loop might, but in every other respect, you are DOUBLING the responsibilities. Even experienced caddies often struggle to deliver a quality fore-caddie experience unless they do it regularly and/or are properly motivated.

It will be quite windy at Streamsong on many prime days, and I don't care how wide those fairways are, even playing from the "correct tees," average golfers will be looking for balls out there. It's superb golf. A lot of subtlety on both courses... requiring astute counsel. Where are those caddies going to come from...thin air? There are some small towns around and Lakeland is about 30 minutes or so away, but you needed to be WAY out in front of this to develop the true "community-benefit" caddie program that all the pre-opening discussion has promised. Those younger caddies, in an area desperate for really opportunites for them, need significant TIME training to at least get to a competent level. Think that happened?

I had several discussions with key folks there, up to two years prior to now, who where made well-aware of what would be needed. Other destinations have had similar advance knowledge provided to them. They all continue to make the same serious oversight. Sadly, many who seek to profit from the game have lost their way on this score. They don't understand it and let misguided thrift get in the way of having it developed properly.

There are certain timeless elements that will always define great golf. The caddie dynamic is central to that. It has given the game its champions, differencemakers and MOST importantly, its human, often humorous soul... for centuries. It has largely been abandoned by the game. Many believe caddie golf is some unnecessary, fading relic of golf's past. They are mistaken. With each passing year of neglect, the game suffers a little more loss. The longer this continues, the sicker the game becomes.

Cheers,
Kris

Well as I stated Kris, they haven't done the caddie program any favors by making the caddie fee 4x more than a cart fee,particulary for the budget minded golfer who's already in for $175.
Throw in one bad or even average caddie experience and the option of a virtually free cart, a bit of warm weather, and even the finest caddiemaster will face an uphill battle.

[Scott Weersing]

I am not sure if Streamsong can maintain a caddie program without a town nearby who can provide future Evans Scholars. You need people who see that customer service is more important than golf knowledge.

I think if you have the right person to head it up and recruit the right people then it will work. Who are the right people to be a caddy? The right person is who focuses on the customer having a good time, no matter how they are playing. You can teach the golf course part of being a caddy, but you need to hire people to caddy who can focus on being positive and help people enjoy the day.

I liked how Ballyneal and Bandon found the right people to be caddies. They don't know a lot about golf but they are willing to learn and enjoy being with people.

It will be interesting to see what the caddy program looks like a year from now.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'm certainly not big on water hazards, but I really like these water features at Streamsong. The contrast the water colour provides in concert with the turf, sand and native plants is really, really pretty.

What a site. Amazing.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm certainly not big on water hazards, but I really like these water features at Streamsong. The contrast the water colour provides in concert with the turf, sand and native plants is really, really pretty. 

Jeff:

I'm not normally big on water hazards, but these ponds are different because they don't feel man-made ... the scale of them is really different than what you see on other courses.  Plus, you are usually looking down on them at a much different angle than you look at a pond; I think that's why the color is so deep.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan, William, Scott & Chris,

It's hard to imagine that a course that just opened up would have an established caddy program, but, you never know.

All of the caddies I've had a Bandon and Pebble were quite good, even exceptional.
But, perhaps they had years of experience, which would be inherently lacking at Streamsong.

$ 80 to $ 100 a bag should attract good to exceptional caddies.
Time will tell

I know that I'm anxious to play those courses and that the resort succeeds.

It looks to be almost equidistant between Tampa, Orlando and Palm Beach, with the dilemma that there's no direct route.

Tom Doak, I have a suggestion for a segment of your target market.
Especially once the hotel is operational.
Helicopter service from Tampa and Orlando with the helicopter/s based on the property or nearby.

When guests call the hotel for transportation they can be told that for $ X a helicopter will pick them up from Tampa or Orlando airports and have them at the resort in 20 minutes.  Just a thought.

It looks to be a 4 hour drive from Miami and a 3 hour drive from West Palm Beach.
What's the drive time from the Tampa and Orlando airports ?
Is there an airport/airstrip/runway closer to the resort ?

[Mark Saltzman]

Pat, it took me just under 2.5 hours from Palm Beach Gardens. I went west on the Bee Line through Indianwood.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

That's good to know, thanks

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'm certainly not big on water hazards, but I really like these water features at Streamsong. The contrast the water colour provides in concert with the turf, sand and native plants is really, really pretty. 

Jeff:

I'm not normally big on water hazards, but these ponds are different because they don't feel man-made ... the scale of them is really different than what you see on other courses.  Plus, you are usually looking down on them at a much different angle than you look at a pond; I think that's why the color is so deep.

The ponds certainly don't look or feel man-made in these photos. Interesting points about their scale and the fact that you're usually looking down on the at an unusual angle, too. I can see that, but couldn't articulate it that easily in my first post.

The colour is striking - should make for some beautiful Josh Smith and Mike Miller paintings!

And, when you're playing to 80-yard wide fairways, the occasional water hazard isn't that big an issue (a la Streamsong). It's when the fairway's 20 yards wide with a pond left and houses right that things become goofy

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

What were your two biggest challenges in designing and building the course ?

Was the wind ever a factor in routing or individual hole design ?

[Ben Sims]

I liked how Ballyneal and Bandon found the right people to be caddies. They don't know a lot about golf but they are willing to learn and enjoy being with people.

It will be interesting to see what the caddy program looks like a year from now.

That's a Bingo. I could give a fig if the program was "established" or not.  What ever happened to honest young'uns carrying the bag, giving me the occasional tip, a yardage, and laughing at my jokes?  It's not a tough equation.  Bandon and Ballyneal got it right.

[Kris Shreiner]

Men, Bandon DID NOT have a good program for QUITE a while. They finally brought in a fella and got serious about it WELL AFTER (years) the first course opened. Ballyneal's was pretty thin early on as well. I'm the last guy in the world to suggest it's easy to have a quality program at the outset...IT IS NOT.

What should be recognized is that just like a course grow-in, a facility needs to have a quality individual at the helm LONG before opening day to develop the caddie program. That gives sound potential for a competent caddie staff to emerge, comprised of a of a variety of ages if you really want some community benefit of substance... FROM THE START.

Does that require some "investment?" You bet, but the product and golf experience doesn't suffer the inconsistency and poor value in the caddie experience that so often plagues facilities that give it short shrift on the front end and then wonder why there are "problems."

You can train folks that are light on golf knowledge, yet have the other interpersonal abilities to develop into fine caddies. A mix of recruited veterans and newbies accelerates the learning curve and is a wise combination.  It takes TIME and it's rare that a facility makes that commitment. If you make it fun, reward the candidates with a nice snack or some lunch on occasion, and instill pride that they are VITAL to facility success...a solid staff that at least has the basics covered WILL emerge by opening day.

Whether you are a private club or higher-end golf destination facility, either can ill-afford poor caddie experiences. It does not reflect well on those that own or manage the place. The reality is a quality staff, well treated, is an AWESOME asset to the facility, on many levels. That group generally has FAR more direct personal time with the golfers than any other staff component. You want your BEST people providing that experience.  Facility operators and owners should be well aware of this, yet they continue to follow in lock-step to produce marginal caddie golf when they open.

Cheers,
Kris

[Jason Thurman]

Fazio on Xanax

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/victoria-national-indiana-usa/

Pretty much exactly my first thought looking through those photos.

[John Kavanaugh]

Fazio on Xanax

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/victoria-national-indiana-usa/

Pretty much exactly my first thought looking through those photos.

Btw.  It was a compliment.

[Mike Hendren]

John, do the photographs of the water features remind you of the artificial yet pre-existing strip-mining lakes at Victoria National?

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

John, do the photographs of the water features remind you of the artificial yet pre-existing strip-mining lakes at Victoria National?

Mike

Yes, the spoils created from the mining also seem similar.  The main difference being that Victoria sat 17 years without being touched which allowed more trees and vegetation to grow.  Sounds like Streamsong is much wider which is required for resort play.

My only complaint about the resort is that I have no connection to the names Red and Blue.  I wish they would have used Hook and Dog which reminds me of many a report card from my youth.  Hook for C&C, Dog for Doak.

I am very happy for my traveling friends who have recently suffered a drought in great new places to play.  Should bring many smiles in 013.

[Joe Bausch]

I think Streamsong got half the course names correct.   

With the site a former phosphate mine, I suggested red and white in honor of the two most common allotropes of the element phosphorus.

 

[Matthew Petersen]

I am not sure if Streamsong can maintain a caddie program without a town nearby who can provide future Evans Scholars. You need people who see that customer service is more important than golf knowledge.

I think if you have the right person to head it up and recruit the right people then it will work. Who are the right people to be a caddy? The right person is who focuses on the customer having a good time, no matter how they are playing. You can teach the golf course part of being a caddy, but you need to hire people to caddy who can focus on being positive and help people enjoy the day.

I liked how Ballyneal and Bandon found the right people to be caddies. They don't know a lot about golf but they are willing to learn and enjoy being with people.

It will be interesting to see what the caddy program looks like a year from now.

This is absolutely right. Knowing people and helping them enjoy their time is really the order of the day for a caddie.

I took my Dad to Pebble Beach this year and convinced him we should take a caddie. We both enjoyed it immensely. I think my best memories of that part of the experience were the numerous putts I holed thanks to excellent reads he gave me that I wouldn't have seen. I'm a decent player and that sort of thing is valuable. But my Dad's not a great player and his score isn't all that important to him, and so his best memories are of a guy who told good stories, kept him in good spirits, and made him laugh when he otherwise might not have wanted to.

Being all things to many different people is certainly not easy.

[John_Cullum]

I think Streamsong got half the course names correct.   

With the site a former phosphate mine, I suggested red and white in honor of the two most common allotropes of the element phosphorus.

 

I believe they may be considering renaming the courses the Longhorn and the Wolverine

[Joe Bausch]

I think Streamsong got half the course names correct.   

With the site a former phosphate mine, I suggested red and white in honor of the two most common allotropes of the element phosphorus.

 

I believe they may be considering renaming the courses the Longhorn and the Wolverine

I heard it was going to be Nittany and the Lion.