New Confidential Guide

[Tom_Doak]

I can't but help to feel that The Netherlands was not really given enough attention.

David (and Ian):

The book is what it is ... my reviews of every course that I've ever seen.  It does not pretend to be "the best 1000 golf courses in the world," though I think I've covered a pretty fair sampling of those.  It could never be all-inclusive; the goal is simply to come as close as possible to covering all the worthwhile courses.

For what it's worth, I have been back to The Netherlands, and covered the main courses David listed.  It was just a stroke of luck that I went there in 1983 to include the Hague and Kennemer in the original book ... which still became wildly successful even without De Pan and Noordwijk.

The one thing that's changed in the past 18 years is how much more information there is on these courses than there used to be.  Now you can find threads about most of them on Golf Club Atlas, whereas 18 years ago, The Confidential Guide was about the only place you were going to read about Pennard or a number of other cool courses.  That may well make the new edition "not what it used to be," but I still think it's worth doing, and worth having.

[David Davis]

Tom, this may be true, there is more information and more access to it via the internet. However, what is information without opinion and who's to know what is purely promotional and what's not, who's being paid to do what or say what. Clearly, there are plenty of us GCA lunatics willing to buy something opinionated if it's written by you. Take out the opinion which we clearly respect even when it hits closer to home then the book is worthless, or perhaps just worth (much) less.

[Jim Sherma]

Having received my copy of the Guide (Thanks Tom) I would like to throw my 2-cents in for a revisit to Hershey CC.

First off, I am embarrassed for the club by the write-up (although I am sure it is true and I was not around back then, the club has been revitalized since then and I have yet to hear anyone pining for the way it was) and I would like it to get a fair assessment.

Secondly, I think the club has merit and is generally under appreciated. It uniquely has three quality courses from three distinct eras. All three are fine examples from the eras in question and all three have hosted national championships within the last few years (USGA, PGA Club Professional and NCAA Div-2).

[David Harshbarger]

Tom,

These are more themes than course

Any of the Javier Arana courses.
Any Japanese courses of note by post-Allison disciples.
Stone Forest.
Schmidt and Curley's contest course at Mission Hills, Hainan
Astoria in OR
Any of the Maine 9-hole selections, as representatives of relatively unchanged early golf.
An Oz oiled-green course

Here in Local upstate NY

Paul Cowley's Orchard Creek, much loved up here and with much "contemporary quirk"
Stamford Golf Club in Stamford, NY, the course recently attributed to Travis

Finally, in a tip of the hat to George Thomas' Golf Architecture in America, a short segment on popular and successful munis where the architecture works for the role the courses play.  Up here, again, Saratoga Spa by Bill Mitchell fits that bill, but I'd hardly think travel necessary.

Dave

[John Crowley]

Tom,

The Minnesota notable courses that have changed or are new since your ’95 visit follow.

I agree with Pat and Jason that Oak Ridge, Town & Country and possibly Midland Hills are under radar courses in Twin Cities.

Minnesota may still have the most golfers per capita of any state. There is a long history of locals seeking out notable  architects to design their courses. Rick Shefchik’s recent book “From Fields to Fairways” chronicles the history of most.

Minikahda Club - Excellent restoration by Prichard. Much improved. Jeff Johnson excellent “young” Super strives to be true to a “classic” ethos.

Interlachen C C - Recent bunker work, new tee and tree clearing on 11th which became a 4 from a 5. Don’t know other changes. Haven’t been there to see the work. Same bones.

Woodhill C C - May be ongoing restoration work by Fought (?).

White Bear Yacht Club - Thankfully not much change since your consult to Terry O’ and green committee. Haven’t been there in a while. Mark Mammel knows best.

Minneapolis Golf Club - Willie Park Jr. 1916, Donald J. Ross 1920 (I have proof). Prichard master plan partially implemented by “architect” member, green committee,  and contractor from Ron’s plan. Could have been excellent had Ron supervised the work and been allowed to apply his touch. Still worth a visit. Respected by Minnesota “players”.

Northland C C - Another excellent young Super (GCAer Chris Tritabaugh) and green committee cleared trees opening vistas and avenues of play. Chris also brought “firm and fast” to NCC. Prichard master plan adopted and being gradually implemented. (Chris moved to Hazeltine at end of 2012 season.)

Edina C C - Extensive recent Lehman work. Haven’t seen, don’t plan to (from every report).

Golden Valley C C - Forse bunker work in early 2000’s.

Hazeltine National G C - Total course bent re-grass two years ago. Other bunker work, tree thinning, etc. (Rees Jones?), actually improved to my eye. If not on your radar in 90’s, nothing of substance has changed.

Somerset C C - Recently finished a new “Raynor” “Short” (17th). Haven’t seen it yet. I contend that the 7th is a “Road”, don’t know if members are aware.

Windsong Farm G C - Fought (“Lehman”) design (2003). A “players” course. Excellent green complexes require thought on approach and if missed, a repertoire of shots. Open “prairie style” as I call it. A great walk, IMO. My and Jason’s club.

John

[Doug Siebert]

If your travels ever take you to eastern Iowa, I think it would be well worth your time to see the Cedar Rapids Country Club.  It's a beautiful old Ross, with some renovation work by Bobby Weed.

If you do that and have a bit of extra time, travel 20 miles south to Saddleback Ridge in Solon.  It's a fun and quirky course that has a lot more strategy with angles than you would ever expect on a course built in rural Iowa.  If I could pick one course in the world I'd like to see you review it'd be that one, out of personal interest since I enjoy it so much.  But I realize that my opinion of it isn't going to be worth your time unless you're already here for some other reason

[Joel_Stewart]

And, sure, there has been a lot of restoration work done since the original Confidential Guide came out, but unless the work was absolutely transformative, it strikes me as sort of a waste of time and an improperly targeted goal to have him review a bunch of courses that were 4s prior to restoration in the hope that maybe he'll give them a 5 (or 5s to 6s) to confirm folks' beliefs...

I think this is going to be the litmus test.  You have clubs who have spent a lot of time and money to go up 1 spot or possibly fall a spot based on either restoration or renovation work.   LACC and Quaker Ridge should move up a spot or two as an example (I don't know what their original score was) and then you have others who somebody like Fazio or Rees have butchered who could get knocked down.  I for one am looking forward to it and hope they have the old score and new score side by side.

[jeffwarne]

I wonder how much recent reviews will be influenced by recent arcitecture trends and comparisons to great courses built in the new Golden Age

For instance, Atlantic was rated at 6 when rated in the early 90's, yet if it was rated today , with all the great new courses built since then, no way its 1994 version comes out a 6 today.

Fortunately, Atlantic is dramatically improved since then.
 I would say it's way better now, just that the comparisons are tougher, and it would be held to a higher standard than it was in 1994.
Would be interesting to see where it would come out.

[Jud_T]

Dave,

Both points of view are valid and important to the book.  In as much as it's a travel golf guide for the discerning golfer, highlighting off-the-run gems as well as knocking a few big names down a peg or two are both valuable to the consumer.

[Sean_A]

Seems like a decent number of folks here just want a review of courses they play regularly or courses they really like.  Basically, positive reinforcement of opinions already formed.  

I'm thinking about this entirely differently.  Although if I were asked to host Tom at Exmoor, I most certainly oblige (I did it for another architect earlier this year), what I really would be more interested in is his views on courses where controversial changes have been made, such as ANGC's tightening and tree planting, or Oakmont when they ripped out the trees, or Bethpage, or yes, Medinah #3.   Or new courses that caused controversy or people thought the architect missed the mark, such as The Bridge (LOL!) or Erin Hills or Dismal River or generated a lot of buzz like, say, Liberty National, Kinglsey or MPCC Shore. I liked the idea of reviewing Rich Harvest and Tobacco Road for this reason.

I don't honestly think Tom is going to say much different about an obviously great course like, say, Friar's Head, than has already been said.  So I don't think that should be a focus.  And, sure, there has been a lot of restoration work done since the original Confidential Guide came out, but unless the work was absolutely transformative, it strikes me as sort of a waste of time and an improperly targeted goal to have him review a bunch of courses that were 4s prior to restoration in the hope that maybe he'll give them a 5 (or 5s to 6s) to confirm folks' beliefs...

I tried to choose courses that were interesting, previously unrated and a few of which I know Tom wants to see.  I threw in UofM because it would be nice to know what Tom thinks seeing the course in daylight - tee hee.  This is still THE one course whose rating completely perplexes me.  That said, M DeVries may do some work at UofM so it may be best to hold off a few years.

Buon Natale

[Tom_Doak]

what I really would be more interested in is his views on courses where controversial changes have been made, such as ANGC's tightening and tree planting, or Oakmont when they ripped out the trees, or Bethpage, or yes, Medinah #3.   Or new courses that caused controversy or people thought the architect missed the mark, such as The Bridge (LOL!) or Erin Hills or Dismal River or generated a lot of buzz like, say, Liberty National, Kinglsey or MPCC Shore. I liked the idea of reviewing Rich Harvest and Tobacco Road for this reason.

I don't honestly think Tom is going to say much different about an obviously great course like, say, Friar's Head, than has already been said.  So I don't think that should be a focus.  And, sure, there has been a lot of restoration work done since the original Confidential Guide came out, but unless the work was absolutely transformative, it strikes me as sort of a waste of time and an improperly targeted goal to have him review a bunch of courses that were 4s prior to restoration in the hope that maybe he'll give them a 5 (or 5s to 6s) to confirm folks' beliefs...

Shivas:

Thank you.

The book is a guide for helping people determine what courses they should go to see.  Most of all, I do want to include new courses which have been noteworthy or controversial, and in particular those where my own opinion is different than the conventional wisdom. 

In that light, if a restoration has made a transformative difference, it will be noted.  But the book is NOT intended to be a critique of other people's renovation work.  Anyone who wants to write their own book on that subject is welcome to do so ... and it's been nice knowing them 

[fred ruttenberg]

Admirals Cove in Jupiter Florida.  Different from the many fine courses in this area and worth a visit.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Tom -

One suggestion I have that can be included in the back part of the book:

Among your lists of courses, consider adding one that groups the courses by where they fall on the scale, say down to 7's or 6's. That shouldn't add unduly to the length of the new volume, and I would think it could be accomplished fairly easily with the software available today.

Thanks for your consideration of this suggestion.

Jonathan

[Anders Rytter]

Tom:
Does changes in equipment influence your opinion on the quality of the architecture? I mean, will courses that haven't been able (or whilling) to fight the evolution in equipment since the last edition fall in your regard?

Regarding the question asked, I guess I'm biased, but i would hope to see more on European courses outside GB+I allthough i reckon that there will be few high grades.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:
Does changes in equipment influence your opinion on the quality of the architecture? I mean, will courses that haven't been able (or whilling) to fight the evolution in equipment since the last edition fall in your regard?

Have a lot of courses become obsolete for you, Anders?  My impression is that most golfers aren't really any better than they used to be, so the effect of equipment technology on enjoying golf courses is greatly exaggerated.

Short courses playing a bit shorter is generally not an issue, because their appeal was not based on difficulty, anyway.  If anything, it's the courses which pride themselves on being very tough which might be downgraded ... because there are so many more long and difficult courses that have been built over the past 20 years to compare them to.

[Ville Nurmi]

Hello Tom,
I would suggest Tony Ristola's Sand Valley in Poland as a quite different take on modern courses!!
And also hope to host you on any courses in Finland.

Regards,
Ville

[Anders Rytter]

Tom:
Does changes in equipment influence your opinion on the quality of the architecture? I mean, will courses that haven't been able (or whilling) to fight the evolution in equipment since the last edition fall in your regard?

Have a lot of courses become obsolete for you, Anders?  My impression is that most golfers aren't really any better than they used to be, so the effect of equipment technology on enjoying golf courses is greatly exaggerated.

I thought it was a fun question as the architecture hasn't changed but still, maybe, the architecture could warrant a different grade.

But, Define obsolete (it's a harsh word)? I "Have to" play new equipment for a couple of reasons and would say I hit the ball longer than average. Some of the older courses I play I leave the woods at home and play the course "as it used to be played".  Is that obsolete, an issue or what is it?

After thinking about it, it is a slight issue for me and can take something off the experience. But I believe it is a significant issue for some, especially people that spend more of their time focusing on their game than on the course.

(EDIT: This is probably not something that has significantly changed since the last confidential guide)

Short courses playing a bit shorter is generally not an issue, because their appeal was not based on difficulty, anyway.  If anything, it's the courses which pride themselves on being very tough which might be downgraded ... because there are so many more long and difficult courses that have been built over the past 20 years to compare them to.

thanks

[Pete Stankevich]

Tom:
How about Bayonne?
Then maybe a swing by your old home state of CT to check out some of the work done post-Guide?
Nothing seemed to be built in CT forever and then there was a run of courses built between 2000 and 2005.
Among them:
Bull's Bridge
Great River
Lake of Isles
Wintonbury Hills
Gillette Ridge
River Oaks
Oxford Greens
Fox Hopyard
Fairview Farms

[Nigel Islam]

French Lick Dye
French Lick Ross

I know you don't care for this part of Indiana too much, but the Hill (Ross) course is terrific and has come a long way in the last ten years from a conditioning standpoint. I think it should definitely make a top 1000 list in the world. I think it compares quite favorably to Harrison Hills. Victoria National is certainly worth a look too.

[Tim Leahy]

Clear Creek Tahoe

The California Golf Club of San Francisco

Dismal River

Sebonack

MPCC-Shore

I thought Clear Creek was an NLE, did someone buy it?  I tried to play there in July of this year and it was closed.

[Jay Flemma]

Oklahoma City G&CC.  Rockaway Hunting Club.

[Cristian]

I will not mention any courses I know you have seen by now.
Perhaps these are of interest:
Ravenstein, Sart Tilman, Oitavos, Villa d'Este, Houthalen.(all cont. Europe)

[James Boon]

Tom,

Some of these have been mentioned already, but I'd be interested to hear your views on:

Beau Desert
Huntercombe
Kington
Painswick (even if you do choose to give it a *)

Wentworth West

Brora (just did a double take when I realised it wasn't in there already)
Cullen

Askernish
Castle Stuart
Mach Dunes
The Castle Course
Spey Valley
Gleneagles PGA Centenary
(Basically any of the new courses in Scotland)

I've not seen all of these myself, but I have seen most of them.

This thread has proved the real value of the Confidential Guide as mentioned above, about encouraging people to try new unknown courses. Just reading your hints regarding courses you've not seen, that I've never seen discussed in GCA circles before, has encouraged me to get to see them as well... such as Tobermory or Auchnafree.

Cheers,

James

Edit: Sean's post reminded me that Tom asked for 5 so I've scrubbed out the others...

[Mark Pearce]

To James' list I'd add Crail Craighead and Close House Colt.

[Sean_A]

I come up with two in Michigan which are not onerous for you to visit.  First, Grosse Ile, second U of M (a second look because I think you are miles out with a 3 rating).

I can also think of two in England.  One was previously mentioned, Huntercombe.  The other is Beau Desert. 

I would add Kington to make the maxed out five number, but I am not sure professional archies can see this place for what it is.  Then again, you got Pennard where other pro archies and critics have missed the boat, so I will roll the dice with Kington. 

Ciao

I didn't realize Brora wasn't in the book.  I seem to recall Tom leaning toward a 7 when he wrote about Brora in passing.  Surely this is a bit high, but I would still like to see Brora included - which I am sure it will be.  That means I drop Kington from my nominations. 

Ciao