[Tim_Weiman]

Sven,

Back when I traded oil BP had an economic model that attempted to differentiate between "what the market gave you" and what the individual trader really accomplished through his own efforts.

Applying the same concept to golf architecture feels like it should be part of this discussion. Tom Doak once said the 13th hole at Pacific Dunes was just sitting there, implying no special points for "genius" should be applied. But, I wonder if the same was true for the famous 2nd hole at St Andrews Beach, arguably a far better and more interesting hole. Perhaps Tom can tell us. Was finding this hole easy? Was it obvious?

But, those are just examples of individual holes not an entire routing. Still, it begs the question: what kinds of sites are the truest test of routing skill?

A perfect laboratory might be one of the world's great undeveloped sites: the Inch Peninsula right across from Dooks Golf Club, a piece of heaven in Ireland. Dr. Arthur Spring was the first person to show me the site, so massive he actually had laid out four courses during his frustrating years trying to get planning permission. I would later go back and walk more of the site with Rupert O'Neal when he was contemplating Ballyneal.

It was not surprising Arthur Spring laid out four courses. There were holes everywhere you turned or climbed. It went on and on.

But, I am lost. Is a property like Lost Dunes with its restrictions the ideal place to measure routing skill? Or is it a Sand Hills, a Ballyneal or the incredible Inch?

Over my head. Folks like Tom or Jim will have to opine.

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul,

Love to see that someday. To me that is one of the very best features a golf course can have, particularly for a private club.

[Jeb Bearer]

Tim,

I know nothing so disregard everything I say. But some of my experiences as a writer of sorts may be applicable, I don't know. I know that, obviously, writing on an awkward or boring topic is extremely difficult, and a good result is strong evidence of a gifted author. Conversely, though, when the words are flowing and the phrases Line up and you've got the perfect metaphor, it takes a lot of skill to know which sentences or paragraphs, no matter how artfully constructed in themselves, don't fit the overall puzzle.

As such, the best judge of a writers talent would be either extreme, while pieces closer to the middle would act like equalizers. I would reason that a similar dynamic applies to GCA, but like I said, it's not my area of expertise. Any archies that have noticed that kind of thing?

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim:

I'd love to see that topo map, if and when you're able to get it digitized and assuming that kind of thing is open game for public consumption.

There's a thread going on regarding Kingsley, and in particular how the front nine is fairly intimate.  Ballyneal has the opposite feel, in that with a few exceptions every hole almost plays as if it is completely isolated from the rest of the course.  You do get the peak at 7 from 4, but in general, as you play the course, your first look at every hole happens when you stand on its tee.  I think the series of reveals is a great feature, and greatly adds to the sense of adventure that takes place.  

Not arguing for one style of presentation over the other, each has their place.  But there is something really cool about the sense of isolation you feel on each hole while playing at Ballyneal and how in some ways it enhances your focus on the moment.  Judging by the amount of land that sits inside the two nines in Holyoke, it seems like this was a conscious choice in some way.

Sven

Quick edit to note that Pac Dunes and Old Mac also represent the two sides of this theory.

[Cristian]

Still trying to think of a definition of great routing (let alone genius). Decided to have an uneducated stab at it to provoke some reaction of the guys that know what they are talking about:

Probably great routing could be scientifically defined as creating a course with holes of maximum quality, starting and ending at roughly the same spot, with limited walks between greens and tees, passing by the starting point (clubhouse) at the ninth and 15th or 16th greens, not starting in easterly direction and not finishing in westerly direction, with the par 4's 3's and 5's spread evenly throughout the round as well as the relative difficulty of holes, ending with a half par hole, changing every 1 or 2 holes in direction relative to prevailing wind, maximising the occurrence of great views, and making use of all the natural 'existing' green sites in the land, minimizing dirt movement and some more prerequisite conditions I cannot think of at the moment.

If you can design 18 holes that come close in quality to 18 holes on the same land, but designed without the restrictions of above criteria, you have a winner. The reality probably is that such is impossible, so some of the above rules have to be broken. Routing genius or at least great routing might be the ability to identify the rules to break given the property to work with.

I am not sure if archies would recognise this thesis, as it is no more than an exercise of thinking out loud and applying amateur logic. I am convinced of one thing however; the very essence of routing is that one can never assess a routing of one or just 2 or 3 holes, as it is the very constraint of coming up with a total of 18, or at least 2 loops of 9 which makes routing so difficult.

As a result any assessment of great routing can really only be done with great knowledge of the land given to work with, especially if one has not been professionally involved in processes of identifying routings. There is only one course I know well enough to accuse its designer of having come up with a great routing: De Pan (Colt)

[Jeb Bearer]

Cristian,

You said "constraint of coming up with a total of 18". We often criticize things conventional here in favor of quirk, like Mackenzie's back to back par 5s and 3s at CP. What about if the best string of golf holes on a site has 17 or 19 holes? That would certainly be unconventional. Would it represent a better routing than one with 18 holes of marginally lesser quality?

[Cristian]

Cristian,

You said "constraint of coming up with a total of 18". We often criticize things conventional here in favor of quirk, like Mackenzie's back to back par 5s and 3s at CP. What about if the best string of golf holes on a site has 17 or 19 holes? That would certainly be unconventional. Would it represent a better routing than one with 18 holes of marginally lesser quality?

If I stick to my 'theory', I would have to say designing 18 holes is yet another rule to be broken in favour of a superior end result. Like Tom's example of Nepal GC. I do think in many cases however, archies would have a hard time of convincing their client...

[Tom_Doak]

Remember the par 4 hole that started on the 7th green at Bandon( before we knew Bandons 7th green existed ) and went west down around the big dune and ended up where 10 green now sits today.

Actually, that was a short par-4 with the tee in the middle of Bandon's seventh fairway.  I still remember how pissed off I was when I saw that ... because I realized it meant that #10 was going to be a par-3, and that would mean we had back to back par-3's in the routing, and I thought it would be hard to convince Mike to let us do that. 

Sara Mess digitized all those old maps this spring for future publication, including the first one I did before we walked the property.  We're thinking about overlaying them each on aerial photos, so that people who can't read topo can visualize the potential holes that were discarded, and see where the tweaks were from the final plan.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

I'd love to see that topo map, if and when you're able to get it digitized and assuming that kind of thing is open game for public consumption.

There's a thread going on regarding Kingsley, and in particular how the front nine is fairly intimate.  Ballyneal has the opposite feel, in that with a few exceptions every hole almost plays as if it is completely isolated from the rest of the course.  You do get the peak at 7 from 4, but in general, as you play the course, your first look at every hole happens when you stand on its tee.  I think the series of reveals is a great feature, and greatly adds to the sense of adventure that takes place.  

Not arguing for one style of presentation over the other, each has their place.  But there is something really cool about the sense of isolation you feel on each hole while playing at Ballyneal and how in some ways it enhances your focus on the moment.  Judging by the amount of land that sits inside the two nines in Holyoke, it seems like this was a conscious choice in some way.

Sven:

That really was NOT a conscious choice ... in most cases the size of the dunes and valleys at Ballyneal made it difficult to put holes together, except over to the right of #17 and 18 on the holes we later abandoned, and in another open stretch to the right of #14 that we wound up not using.

Indeed, it was a conscious choice to keep playing with the routing until we got a couple of holes that interacted with each other ... that little stretch of 4-7 that you mentioned.  I thought it was an important piece of variety after the early holes where you were so isolated.

[Bill Brightly]

How about Friars Head?  Nice use of par 5's to cover ground.  In fact, Pac Dunes does the same.  I think both of those is pretty solid as far as routing goes.

Crystal Downs front nine is another I like for routing.  Oakmont's another.

Ben,

Just to be argumentative, many have used par 5's as connecting holes to get to the really good natural green sites.

John,

I can't define "routing genius" because two world class holes were found next to the Pacific Ocean.

[Sven Nilsen]

Question for the group on Crystal:

What did the original nine holes by Goebel look like and how much, if any, did Mackenzie borrow for his routing?

[Tom_Doak]

Question for the group on Crystal:

What did the original nine holes by Goebel look like and how much, if any, did Mackenzie borrow for his routing?

Sven:

No one has a routing for the original nine holes, but Fred Muller has tried to piece it together using an old scorecard.

The property ended at the old road which runs across the 8th fairway landing area across to #6 fairway by the scabs; the practice area and the 10th and 18th fairways were probably part of the land, too.  Only two greens remain from the old course -- the chipping green on the way down to the practice range (in a hollow to the right of #8 green), and the back of the present 4th green which was extended and used.  I think that hole was a shorter, straightaway hole in the original plan.  You can also make out an old tee in the left side of the 8th fairway, just before it tumbles down the hill.

In short, MacKenzie did not use much of anything for the new front nine, because he was able to employ a different bit of property.

[Sidney Lin]

Just wondering where you rate a course like New South Wales. I think the holes from 13 to 16 are especially well routed and a great down the stretch collection of holes for winning or losing a championship. Also worth considering are Barnbougle Dunes and Barnbougle Lost Farm. Stunning uses of a nice piece of old farm land. One by Tom Doak the other by Coore Crenshaw. Very thought provoking layouts.

[Sven Nilsen]

Just wondering where you rate a course like New South Wales. I think the holes from 13 to 16 are especially well routed and a great down the stretch collection of holes for winning or losing a championship. Also worth considering are Barnbougle Dunes and Barnbougle Lost Farm. Stunning uses of a nice piece of old farm land. One by Tom Doak the other by Coore Crenshaw. Very thought provoking layouts.

Welcome to the show Sidney.

Point of order, Lost Farm was Coore only, as Ben Crenshaw seems to prefer to stay stateside these days.

Also, describing the dunes at Barnbougle as farm land does the terrain a disservice.

Be interested to hear a bit more on what intrigued you about the routings of the three courses you noted.

Sven

[Tony_Muldoon]

Melvyn has proof that Old Tom contributed to that this process although no one can be 100% clear about who decided exactly what.  It would take Pat Mucci to play the course without being stopped in your tracks at how beautifully it all works out.  It all depends waht you want from a Golf Course, Pat may not see genius in this but I do.

Tony,

Would you cite for me, with detailed specificity, where I was critical of North Berwick ?

Or do you just make up crap like this out of ignorance ?

Dear Pat

How many hours after coming out with the bad language are you going to post about Santa?  I thought you'd said you deplored such behaviour on here.


"It would take Pat Mucci..."  is using your frequently expressed opinion that views are not important in rating the golf experience. I believe the opposite. It's not hard to understand and no, I have no intention of looking back for the many times you've expressed such a view.  However I bet the majority of readers here understood exactly the point I was making and I hope smiled at the way I expressed it.


Rest assured I won't invoke your name again in an attempt to lighten the tone and as always I will leave the last word to you.


Merry Christmas.


Tony

[Sidney Lin]

Dear Sven, where do I start?

New South Wales is located on a great piece of real estate,  on the pacific ocean. Prevailing wind is a nor Easter and also the Sydney southerly buster.  The stretch I described from 13 to 16 Starts with a downwind dog leg which you cannot hit long on. Hybrid 3 for a long hitter followed by an uphill approach to a green where long is dead.

14 is a stunning risk and reward hole. Ocean on your left and a large carry in front of you. About 150m or so to carry the ravine to a double saddled fairway. Tee shot so important on this hole. The routing here is brilliant with the natural Terrain and topography adding to the excitement.

15 is up a steep hil thru a chute and into the nor Easter.  If you clear the hill you get a great look at the green. If you don't well play it as a par 5. All fairways so far are carved out of it tree and anything more than 3-5m off fairway is dead and buried.

16 is a repeat of 13 but tightens through the ti tree. It's an exhausting stretch of holes that can make or break you. Not lengthy or bunkered to the point of insanity but great use of the natural land especially 14 and 15.

I will cover the Barnbougle twins another day!

[Michael Goldstein]

This is a good discussion and the most important GCA topic IMO.

Two of the biggest problems with the game of golf is that it's too expensive and it's too time consuming.  I believe a good routing helps to overcome these problems. 

I am surprised that a couple of courses from down under have not been mentioned.  Specifically, Kingston Heath on 125 acres of relatively flat land (far worse land than Royal Melbourne) has to be a pin up. 

Also Paraparaumu has a brilliant routing also on a small piece of land.  It's easy to walk the course in a little over 2 hours.  The routing could be described as a little up and down but the genius of it continues to dawn on me.  For example, the two holes playing east/west (and across, as opposed to into/with the prevailing winds) have blind tee shots over high dunes. 

[Mike_DeVries]

Is routing a mathematical/engineering calculation or an artistic endeavor? 

1) Is routing the act of finding a functional foundation for the art that comes later?  Focus on function
2)  Is routing primarily about finding golf holes that work (function) and fit with our idea of what a course should be?  Focus on golf
3) Or is it about finding natural "art" that can function as golf features and then using parts of both questions from above to connect the dots?  Focus on art

Is routing a combo of all three with the genius appearing when the proper ratios are nailed for a certain piece of ground.

Don,
I am late to this discussion but I like that it is a combo and finding the "right" combo is sometimes a feeling that is hard to quantify.
Cheers,
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Adding this from the other thread on Kingsley since it seems to be tied more to this discussion and Sven recommended.
Mike

Quote from: Sven Nilsen on Yesterday at 06:13:54 AM

Perhaps this belongs on the routing thread, but I'd love to hear Mike D. talk a bit more about the routing process for the front 9.  From what I've heard, there are a number of really cool sounding holes that were sacrificed (including some different angles for playing the land that makes up 4 and 6 and the big hollow in between).



Sven,

One of the first holes I found on the property was a short par 5 that went from the far left of the third fairway back across the 4th and 2nd holes to the back tee on #6.  It was a great natural hole with lots of movement and options but it "just didn't fit" with other holes that were good enough for the final cut or provided for good flow.  Subsequently, holes 2-7T replace what that one hole crossed over, so now we have 5 very dynamic holes around the deep sinkhole of the "South 40" -- these holes are great holes and work very well together, weaving in and amongst each other to create an intimate yet expansive feel.  The 7th tee is the exit point for the South 40 and is very important, as it is a significant drop to exit that plateau - interestingly, the first landing area there is an entirely different feeling, confined by trees on the left and hillside on the right, with a blind/semi-blind 2nd shot.  I like that juxtaposition of feelings and the transition it presents to the golfer.  With the 5 holes on the South 40 plus the exit strategy, I had to get to the South 40 and back to the clubhouse area (which was logically going to be in the vicinity of the north-west-central portion of the property due to access and property configuration, although it didn't necessarily have to be exactly where it is located currently if the routing dictated a better spot).  Hence, a variety of combinations and greensites were considered, with #1G a very interesting site for any number of hole plans, but the second landing area of the 1st was the most degraded part of the property as it had 2 acres bulldozed flat for a gas transmission collection point -- that area is completely manipulated and represents about 50% of the earth-moving on the project.  So, the question was, "Should we have 1 or 2 holes out to the South 40 and 1 or 2 back to the clubhouse?"  Going out in two didn't provide for very good/different holes that added to the golf course and 8 was really dynamic and 9 was 9 (still the most controversial hole on the course . . . wouldn't MacKenzie think that was a good sign?) so that led to the big 3-shotter to start things out and figuring out how to incorporate the earth-moving that we needed to "naturalize" the gas work area into that concept.  One of the owners wanted a plateau to hit to as a target and so we manipulated the big hill on the right to create the right landing area and push material down into the gas site for contour.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Mike

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

Andrew Lewis made a comment to me recently about the company we keep.  I think he would approve of the company us hackers are keeping on this thread with you, Jim and Tom sharing their thoughts.

Could you compare the process you went through at Kingsley with how things worked out at Greywalls?  In my mind, Greywalls is much more of a Lost Dunes, in that the result had to fit with the obstacles presented.  If anything, it seems like the two nines at Greywalls are much more like the terrain on the back nine at Kingsley (if anything could ever be like the terrain you worked with up in Marquette).

All the best,

Sven

[Sean_A]

I will throw another out there.  I often think of Worplesdon's holes over the road.  It isn't often that a golfer is keen to cross a busy road in the middle of a game, but Worpy's 11-14 really creates what is often overlooked as an awesome back nine (really, is there a better front or back in the heathlands?).  Its that back nine which elevates Worpy to its heathland position.   

Ciao

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike:

Andrew Lewis made a comment to me recently about the company we keep.  I think he would approve of the company us hackers are keeping on this thread with you, Jim and Tom sharing their thoughts.

Could you compare the process you went through at Kingsley with how things worked out at Greywalls?  In my mind, Greywalls is much more of a Lost Dunes, in that the result had to fit with the obstacles presented.  If anything, it seems like the two nines at Greywalls are much more like the terrain on the back nine at Kingsley (if anything could ever be like the terrain you worked with up in Marquette).

All the best,

Sven

Sven,

Greywalls site has a lot of restrictions on it (rock, wetlands, elevation) that permitted certain courses of action and restricted many others.  Because of this, I was looking at how to fit in holes that fit together to create a course that flows across its wild terrain.  The elevation dictates that whenever you go downhill, you need to somehow come back up and that is not easy to do with good holes so you have to work your way across the site, gaining elevation with intermediate steps at breaks in the action (G to T transitions) or with dramatic carries (semi-blind drive on #5).  Sometimes, there are holes that are just too good (#7, long downhill par 4, 490 yards from the back but dropping 120' with wild rock outcroppings across the fairway and awesome views of Lake Superior from the elevated tee - the first look at the lake since the opening tee shot) but will require a little climb back up for the next hole (#8 is a wonderful short par 4 but the tee is about midway with the 7th).

The key at Greywalls was finding a way to maximize the views, rock, elevation, and terrain to balance it all out.  So the front nine has a killer view at #1 tee, a big DH hole followed by holes with big movement and lots of rock outcroppings and walls, with a dramatic 7th, then the middle plateau of 9, 10, 11T (with 17 and 18T there for the finish) with great views, followed by the best golf ground on the property in the broad valley of 11-16 (beautiful rolling sand, with a stream through part of it that has a gorge at the 15th and bordered on the north side by rock where the 16th climbs to its green), then up to 17 and 18T on the central plateau for a last glimpse of Lake Superior before 18 tumbles back DH to a wide valley with its green backdropped by rock outcroppings.  It is somewhat of a wild roller-coaster ride and the finish is the glide-out at the end, with a birdie or eagle possibility but plenty going on to make you want to go right back to the first tee and do it all over.

Mike

[Mike_Clayton]

Sidney,

The only pieces of Barnbougle that could remotely be described as farmland are the 2nd and perhaps part of the 10. Neither parts of the 11,000 acre farm were used as farmland.

I wonder if 14 at NSW has much 'risk and reward' to it. The further left you drive the longer the carry and the shorter the pitch but it's hardly a difficult drive to leave yourself with 100 yards in. It's a really good hole but it's the threat of disaster if you go long with the pitch that makes it scary. For me its the easiest tee shot on the whole course - or certainly one of the easiest few.
15 on the other hand is the hardest in the world when it's into the wind.

[Sidney Lin]

Dear Mike,

I am not going to argue with you regarding Barnbougle however I am sure the marketing material talks about the place being formerly a functioning farm. But hey you were there designing the place, I merely played it on a nice weekend in March!

14th at NSW the easiest drive? Not sure about that one. It's dead if you go long on the pitch, agreed but I think the drive there needs a lot of precision due to the need for good distance control as well. Playing driver on that hole is brave I think! So much can go wrong with a driver. Left is hopelessly unfindable, a slice is trouble, go too long on the wrong line and it's trouble.

Totally agree with 15 being one of the toughest. Great watching drives get to about 180 into the wind and start rolling back down the hill. Sadistic pleasure...

However just my opinion, I am simply a hacker with the privilege to play some nice courses from time to time, Mike you do this for a living both playing and designing. I value your opinion and respect your thoughts on the topic.

I think  you did a great job at the Lakes and ignore the flak that gets thrown up. Tell me whose decision was it regarding the grass selection at the Lakes? The board or the designers or the superintendent? Is the choice of kikuyu to make the course play longer? Always wondered why couch grass was not used....

[Mike_Clayton]

Sidney,

Barnbougle still is a functioning farm - but there was no farming in the dunes obviously. For Richard Sattler the sand was an aggravation because it blew all over the flat farmland.

I do ignore all the flak re The Lakes - we know what doesn't work so well and needs some alteration but most of the criticism I have heard isn't particularly well informed.

The kikuyu decision was made by all of involved - committee, green-keeper and us. It's such a massive job to get rid of it and then to keep it out - and for me it's a really good surface to hit shots from.  It works pretty well at Riviera.
It is somewhat restrictive around the green but having watched the winner of the Australian PGA and Robert Allenby putt from everywhere at Coolum perhaps it's a good thing it forces players to chip.

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