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Jud_T

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #75 on: December 20, 2012, 06:44:12 PM »
I think the terms genius routing and dogtrack are mutually exclusive.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #76 on: December 20, 2012, 06:48:01 PM »
This is interesting. It would seem that the quality of a routing is completely independent of the overall quality of the course. For instance, on a small, oddly shaped, severe site, it could be tremendously difficult to route 18 holes; one might end up with a pretty good course that has some awkward holes, which actually represents the best possible routing for that site.

Conversely, some great courses might have just routed themselves, so to speak. For example, TOC is located on a long, narrow tract barely two playing corridors wide, which necessitated the present configuration of the holes.


Jeb:  Perhaps you should read up on how The Old Course came to be.  There is plenty of land on its flanks ... it was hardly "located on a long, narrow tract."  And it only became two playing corridors wide when they hacked back the gorse to protect the lives of people playing back inward to the same greens.

For that matter, some of the other "genius" described here is really a question of evolution.  Muirfield's fine routing, for example, evolved over three or four different stages.

I will throw into the "genius" category the routing of Himalayan Golf Club in Nepal, which I played two weeks ago.  It plays down into a canyon 250 feet deep but is still an inspiring walk; and the designer solved the problem of having room enough for only 16 holes (so far) by decreeing that golfers play the 1st and 2nd holes at the beginning AND end of the round.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2012, 06:48:31 PM »
Tim:

As Jeb said, sometimes the best anyone could do is not going to be good enough.  You can mix the ingredients with the most expert of technique, but a mud pie is still just a mud pie.

On the other side of the equation, I really wonder if you can have a good course without a good routing.  I haven't played WF, so I can't speak to how that course plays.  The example that jumps out to me immediately is Bandon Trails.  The fact that most people don't make the walk from 13 to 14 could be considered a flaw in the routing, but I still think it is a great course, and one of the best 18 hole journeys in the game.

All the best,

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mac Plumart

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #78 on: December 20, 2012, 07:06:54 PM »
Himalayan Golf Club in Nepal

Very cool, Tom.  Anymore you think are worthy of mention?  I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Of courses I haven't played but am keen to based on "genius" routing potential...

Highlands Links
Merion
Wannamoisett
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2012, 07:13:19 PM »
Himalayan Golf Club in Nepal

Very cool, Tom.  Anymore you think are worthy of mention?  I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Of courses I haven't played but am keen to based on "genius" routing potential...

Highlands Links
Merion
Wannamoisett


Mac:

Do you know the evolution of Merion's routing?  They did not own the land for #11 green and #12 tee until the early 1920's.  The purchase allowed them to change the 2nd, 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th holes for the better.

Sean_A

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #80 on: December 20, 2012, 07:18:33 PM »
Again, hard to talk about genius, but St Enodoc is an interesting routing.  There are a few holes keeping the routing moving which really impress me.  Of course there is the 4th, which not only uses a crap piece of land very well, but it also starts the very cool 4, 5, 6 loop back to the 3rd green/7th tee.  Then there is 10,14 & 15 which not only work the course off and back onto links land, but also bookend a loop of holes which can be skipped if the golfer wants to cut over to #16 after the 9th.  Using these two cuts gives the golfer a perfect 9 hole loop 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 16, 17 & 18 back to the house.  It doesn't hurt that so many cool features of the course are on the non-9 hole loop.  

I think Muirfield's routing goes without saying as very cool and for me seals the rep of OTM as a far better archie then the 18 flags in a day type guy.  

Another which intrigues me is Portrush, but I have never sat down to figure out why it is so pleasing.  It is interesting how the front and back nines intermingle so well, but I am not sure 8 & 9 work together very well.  I would also say that 17 & 18 are out of character with the rest of the course and it is unfortunate they are the last two holes.  

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeb Bearer

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2012, 07:21:58 PM »
This is interesting. It would seem that the quality of a routing is completely independent of the overall quality of the course. For instance, on a small, oddly shaped, severe site, it could be tremendously difficult to route 18 holes; one might end up with a pretty good course that has some awkward holes, which actually represents the best possible routing for that site.

Conversely, some great courses might have just routed themselves, so to speak. For example, TOC is located on a long, narrow tract barely two playing corridors wide, which necessitated the present configuration of the holes.


Jeb:  Perhaps you should read up on how The Old Course came to be.  There is plenty of land on its flanks ... it was hardly "located on a long, narrow tract."  And it only became two playing corridors wide when they hacked back the gorse to protect the lives of people playing back inward to the same greens.

For that matter, some of the other "genius" described here is really a question of evolution.  Muirfield's fine routing, for example, evolved over three or four different stages.

I will throw into the "genius" category the routing of Himalayan Golf Club in Nepal, which I played two weeks ago.  It plays down into a canyon 250 feet deep but is still an inspiring walk; and the designer solved the problem of having room enough for only 16 holes (so far) by decreeing that golfers play the 1st and 2nd holes at the beginning AND end of the round.

Tom,

I have heard that the Old Course used to be flanked by agriculturally reserved land where the New and Jubilee courses now sit. Is that not correct?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2012, 07:24:56 PM »
Genius is when the signature bunker on a course is more than a half a mile from the nearest green.

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2012, 08:07:53 PM »
John K :

But, it depends which hemisphere the course is on.
Tim Weiman

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2012, 08:17:39 PM »
John K :

But, it depends which hemisphere the course is on.

Tim,

How many genius moments would you believe have occurred in all of humankind over the last century?  Once you arrive at this very personal number it is easier to define genius.  You see, for me, I doubt that this number is greater than 1000 which greatly reduces the number directly related to golf. I can not argue that many men would put the number closer to infinity but then again I do not carry around pictures of my children.

Charlie_Bell

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2012, 09:52:46 PM »
Fun thread.  As posed, the original question begs two separate questions, namely, "What constitutes good routing?" and "What constitutes a work of genius?"  The focus of the thread has been on the former, but I'll offer my thoughts on the latter.  I'd say a work of genius has two or three principle characteristics: 

1) Whether we're talking about the solution to a problem (as in engineering, architecture, math or science), or the expression of a thought, emotion, or experience (as in art and literature), the result must be so breathtakingly original that we marvel at the sheer INVENTIVENESS of the imagination behind it.

2) The work of genius is usually, though not always, surprising in its simplicity.  The double helix of DNA.  The theory of natural selection.  E = MC^2.  "...and that government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from the earth."  The thing should evoke a response of "Why didn't I think of that?" yet nobody in history DID think of it before the genius came along.

3) Related to #2 is that the beauty and ingenuity of the creation should, ideally, be accessible to the common person.  The Last Supper.  "Ask not what your country can do for you..."  The VW Beetle - or the classic VW print ads.  {Photo of a plastic model of the Lunar Excursion Module in the summer of 1969 with the slogan "It's ugly but it gets you there" and the VW logo.} Beethoven's 5th. 

Using these criteria we may have a hard time examining the notion of genius in golf course routing.  There's often an inherent paradox because the stroke of genius must seem blindingly obvious - but only after the fact.  So, as Tom suggested, we may need to rely on the testimony of architects who, having examined the same plot of land, failed to see the solution that ultimately seems perfect.  It's like the piece of marble from which Michelangelo carved David. Apparently other sculptors quit on it because it was too thin in the middle. 

It would be fun if we can agree on what constitutes superior routing before we try to tackle the notion of "routing genius."   I'm eager to listen but pessimistic that we can come to any conclusions.  Perhaps we can call on The Donald?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2012, 10:05:03 PM »
Genius is when the signature bunker on a course is more than a half a mile from the nearest green.

Where's that?

Mac Plumart

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #87 on: December 20, 2012, 10:10:39 PM »
It would be fun if we can agree on what constitutes superior routing



I think it is clear and simple in concept, but perhaps not easy to achieve...or maybe even for the golfer/player to recognize.

It is getting the most out of a piece of property
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

William_G

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2012, 12:51:20 AM »


It is getting the most out of a piece of property

plain and simple w/o bells and whistles
It's all about the golf!

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #89 on: December 21, 2012, 01:07:29 AM »
Mac:

As I am sure you know, that is a phrase we have all heard many times, but my gut feel is that it isn't very useful to actually assess how an architect did with a site. It is short and sounds good, but offers very little or nothing in terms of helping us make a real assessment.

John K:

Thanks for starting this thread. Our struggle certainly suggests you asked a good question. I think!

So how many moments of genius overall? And how many are there that apply to golf architecture?

For the overall, one thousand does sound like a lot. The last one I saw was Steve Jobs introduction of the original iPhone. You Tube it and you will see. He made the old Blackberry seem pretty mundane and unappealing.

But, I am hard pressed to think of many equivalent moments.

It only follows that real genius doesn't come very often when comes to routing a golf course.

Tim Weiman

William_G

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2012, 01:37:02 AM »
Mac:

As I am sure you know, that is a phrase we have all heard many times, but my gut feel is that it isn't very useful to actually assess how an architect did with a site. It is short and sounds good, but offers very little or nothing in terms of helping us make a real assessment.


I'll take Mac with a TKO in Round 1, LOL
It's all about the golf!

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2012, 02:22:29 AM »
William,

Feel free to tell us us what  "getting the most out of the property" really means.

Again, it is a catchy phrase we have all heard for decades, but I have never seen anyone actually spell out the methodology of how we make the assessment. That is what is missing from the literature. That is something no one has done here at GolfClubAtlas or it's predecessor, Tradional golf.com.

For fifteen years I haven't seen it. If Mac can be the first, that would be great. That might even truly be genius!

It hasn't been done because it is not an easy task. Absent exposure to a site prior to construction and to the various routing plans considered, there is no chance, I believe. That severely restricts the number of people who could even try. Then, too, with most of the world's best 100-200 courses, there really isn't much documentation on the routing plan as it developed. So, no real way to truly evaluate the architect's decision making on the routing plan.



Tim Weiman

William_G

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2012, 02:34:12 AM »
William,

Feel free to tell us us what  "getting the most out of the property" really means.

Again, it is a catchy phrase we have all heard for decades, but I have never seen anyone actually spell out the methodology of how we make the assessment. That is what is missing from the literature. That is something no one has done here at GolfClubAtlas or it's predecessor, Tradional golf.com.

For fifteen years I haven't seen it. If Mac can be the first, that would be great. That might even truly be genius!

It hasn't been done because it is not an easy task. Absent exposure to a site prior to construction and to the various routing plans considered, there is no chance, I believe. That severely restricts the number of people who could even try. Then, too, with most of the world's best 100-200 courses, there really isn't much documentation on the routing plan as it developed. So, no real way to truly evaluate the architect's decision making on the routing plan.





Tim,

It could that the essnce of the "genius" of routing is unattainable, but merely a goal of anyone given the chance.

To strive for attaining the most from the site is the goal of the routing. Plain and simple.

There may be no formula for you to put in a text book or on this site.

Be the ball Danny.



It's all about the golf!

Mike_Trenham

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2012, 03:49:53 AM »
How about how RTJ remodeled Eugene CC by reversing the entire course and the members playing it through out the remodel.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2012, 04:04:07 AM »
Front Nine at Royal County Down


Dunno Ian... 1,2,3 are fairly obvious, perhaps too obvious because they use up all 1.5k of ocean frontage in one fell swoop with the beach to the right in all cases... The corridor that 4 & 5 follow are about the only place you could go after that... The 6,7,8 solution is good though... And 9 is a cracker but it follows the natural dune valley home...

Question is could you have used the ocean differently, given the height of the main ridge placed 200m back from the sea?

Would you have wanted to?... Sometimes obvious is best after all...

Which takes me back to something John said... 16 at Cypress, 8 at Pebble Beach - yes, anyone can see those holes, I agree... But the genius of routings is actually being able to fit the great, obvious holes in to an overall jigsaw.

Connor Dougherty

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2012, 04:57:26 AM »
I agree with what Ally mentioned with finding obvious holes and fitting it into a jigsaw. You just have to figure out who the jigsaws for.

Does it really matter if a resort course comes back to the clubhouse after 9 holes? I don't think so. Consider Pebble Beach. Anyone who shows up to play this course is playing all 18. The only reasonable loop is playing 1-3 and then 17 and 18, but if you go past that, it's hard to come back without playing all 18.

At a private club with a membership, it's much more important to have several points to get to and from the clubhouse. Creating potential three or four hole loops (i.e. playing holes 1, 2, 8, and 9) may be far superior. The back 9 at Pasatiempo is wonderfully routed not only because it follows the barrancas and uses the natural features so well, but because 10th, 12th, and 16th greens are so close to each other, providing one focal point for the back nine that can lead to several different loops of holes for its members. Members can play 3, 5, 7, and 9 holes while returning to the clubhouse.

Switch the roles, and the sociable sense you get at Pasatiempo is partially lost. If Pebble Beach were private, members could play 1-3, 17, and 18, but if they were to play 4, it becomes a bit harder to come back to the clubhouse while playing less than 18 holes (you could play 1-8 and 14-18, or 1-9 and 13-18, but this hardly provides any benefits for membership).

I agree with what Ally mentioned with finding obvious holes and fitting it into a jigsaw. You just have to figure out who the jigsaws for.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Jud_T

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2012, 06:33:12 AM »
I would second the nomination of Lost Dunes.  Frankly it probably should have come up sooner.  Between the nature of the site, the highway and all the environmental restrictions they apparently faced, the result is pretty amazing.  Perhaps the back 9 was a bit more self evident, but that doesn't take anything away from the achievement.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 06:35:23 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2012, 08:03:43 AM »
On the question of routing links courses, perhaps the majority can be said to fit in with the ‘out and back’ tag. Of these I think the majority tend to have most of their front 9’s by the sea and then the return slightly inland.  Is this because if makes it easier to return to the Clubhouse or because the better land is reserved for the back 9? There's another theory. The available land is by definition a narrow corridor in these cases, so once you’ve laid out your holes adjacent to the sea you can determine the holes inland.  You couldn’t work it the other way round.


Anyway I’m sure I’ve argued for this before but when North Berwick extended from a nine hole course to 18 in 1877, the routing for the new holes was switched over creating a figure of 8. This was possible by having the holes 5-8  head further inland with a triangulation to take you back the sea at the 9th.  The poorest land at the far end is eaten up with 3 par 5’s in 4 holes. But the overriding impression you come away with is that you have played all day close to the sea, with none of the normal tales of two half’s so familiar to links golf.   Melvyn has proof that Old Tom contributed to that this process although no one can be 100% clear about who decided exactly what.  It would take Pat Mucci to play the course without being stopped in your tracks at how beautifully it all works out.  It all depends waht you want from a Golf Course, Pat may not see genius in this but I do.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #98 on: December 21, 2012, 08:15:39 AM »
William,

Feel free to tell us us what  "getting the most out of the property" really means.

Again, it is a catchy phrase we have all heard for decades, but I have never seen anyone actually spell out the methodology of how we make the assessment. That is what is missing from the literature. That is something no one has done here at GolfClubAtlas or it's predecessor, Tradional golf.com.

For fifteen years I haven't seen it. If Mac can be the first, that would be great. That might even truly be genius!

It hasn't been done because it is not an easy task. Absent exposure to a site prior to construction and to the various routing plans considered, there is no chance, I believe. That severely restricts the number of people who could even try. Then, too, with most of the world's best 100-200 courses, there really isn't much documentation on the routing plan as it developed. So, no real way to truly evaluate the architect's decision making on the routing plan.


Tim:

You are making it harder than it needs to be.  Getting the most out of the property is a always going to be subjective, and it's never the same because every property is different.  But it IS the goal.

It will always be hard to quantify genius if we agree with Immanuel Kant on what it means.  From wikipedia:

   "much of Schopenhauer's theory of genius, particularly regarding talent and the "disinterestedness" (i.e. "free play") of aesthetic contemplation, is directly derived from paragraphs of Part I of Kant's Critique of Judgment.[13]
            Genius is a talent for producing something for which no determinate rule can be given, not a predisposition consisting of a skill for something that can be learned by following some rule or other.

And even harder if we go with the Nietzsche definition, also from wikipedia:

     "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see."
In the philosophy of Nietzsche, genius is merely the context which leads us to consider someone a genius. In Twilight of the Idols, Nietzsche writes, "Great men, like great epochs, are explosive material in whom tremendous energy has been accumulated; their prerequisite has always been, historically and physiologically, that a protracted assembling, accumulating, economizing and preserving has preceded them – that there has been no explosion for a long time."
 

Years ago, I defined my own first goal more simply:  to come up with a routing which required earthwork or re-shaping of the fairway on the fewest number of holes.  That sort of "path of least resistance" is the essence of minimalism [and of the Interstate Highway system].

I realized over time that the best possible routing could mean more than that.  Sometimes, it might be better to move dirt on another hole or two so you can work your way into a corner of the property with a unique character or a great view or a special hole you would otherwise have to leave out.  Stone Eagle has a good example of that.  It took a massive leap of faith to climb up to the sixth or seventh holes -- not just to include that corner, but so we DIDN'T HAVE TO INCLUDE the property to the right of #13, which was fraught with difficult terrain and ugly neighboring properties.  That's the sort of thing that, as you say, most observers could never understand unless they had looked hard at how all 18 holes could fit onto the site.  

Yet, you could look at Stone Eagle and determine that there were no great views that we missed.  Or that, in spite of it being very difficult to walk, the only way it would have been more walkable would have been to tack back and forth up the hill and destroy many of the rocky features between the holes that are the essence of the place.  So you could say, generally if not specifically, that we seemed to get the most out of what the site offered.

Likewise, it would be impossible to analyze all the options Ballyneal or Sand Hills presented and determine if the routing I came up with was really THE best one.  I can tell you that because at the end of the day, I know that even I don't really know the answer to that question for Ballyneal, much less Sand Hills ... there were hundreds of acres to work with and a lot of good terrain, and any solution was doomed to leave out lots of great stuff.  I only know that for Ballyneal I came up with a routing that seemed to make the most of the terrain, and get to all the coolest places within reach, and provide a great variety of holes, and avoid any holes which destroyed the flow of the routing or the sense of the whole.  

Even the greatest of chess masters does not know the game completely.  If they did then there would be a perfect move for every given situation, and they would never lose [but they would probably play to a whole lot of draws against other masters].  And 200 acres of good ground is a LOT more complicated than a chess board.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #99 on: December 21, 2012, 09:41:32 AM »
I would second the nomination of Lost Dunes.  Frankly it probably should have come up sooner.  Between the nature of the site, the highway and all the environmental restrictions they apparently faced, the result is pretty amazing.  Perhaps the back 9 was a bit more self evident, but that doesn't take anything away from the achievement.

I'd call it the most "ballsy" routing, with forced walk/ride to two tees, in order to end at the clubhouse while dealing with the bisecting Interstate highway. And this at a course that emphasizes walking!  Fabulous.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 10:46:19 AM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

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