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Tom_Doak

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2012, 03:16:05 PM »

Years ago I spent a day with Tom Doak at Stonewall before construction began on the second course. Tom showed where he intended to build a hole inspired by a hole at Royal Melbourne. Pretty cool, especially when I finally made it Down Under to see the inspiration.

Tim:

You reminded me of one genius routing -- Royal Melbourne!

When I saw the map of the pre-existing layout before MacKenzie got there, I was amazed.  Several of the green sites on the back nine were part of the previous routing, but all of the holes looked quite pedestrian.  MacKenzie connected them together in different ways, creating more doglegs and diagonals, and presto! -- a great routing.

His use of the hill on the 4th West was even better than that.  Going straight up over the top of the tallest hill yielded not only a classic hole that I wanted to steal for my own, but it was the making of the 3rd, 5th, and 6th West, too ... and even gave him room to fit in the 17th East.

It was not genius that I remembered to steal that idea when faced with a tough routing problem at Stonewall -- but it wasn't my worst moment either!

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2012, 03:17:35 PM »
John, are you saying that if the property is a simple one, if an architect routes the best possible golf course on it, it still isn't a great routing because it was easy? Or are you just saying a routing has to be out of the box to be great?

Mark, can't a course can have a great routing without it necessarily being genius, if the property were very good and certain constraints made the routing pretty obvious?

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2012, 03:26:43 PM »
Rich Goodale:

The 7th and 8th at Pebble Beach are great for this discussion because of the layout of these holes and the fact that so many people here are familiar with them it makes it easy for folks to participate.

But, honestly I struggle to call it "genius routing" even though, obviously, that stretch of holes is pretty awesome.

If the 7th hole had been left for seals to sun bathe, could something better have been built on the land that occupies #8? I can imagine an awesome cape hole with a green being placed somewhere on the existing 9th fairway.

I would guess you can easily imagine the same.

But, of course, we would then need to deal with the consequences. How would this change have impacted #9, 10 and possibly 11?

I 'd hate to give up #9. (even though I never played it very well!), but #10 always felt kind of redundant to me, like something different could have been done.

How do we get to the "genius" level? Doesn't it require a comparison to routing alternatives and not just evaluating the impact on a single hole or two?

I have looked at golf courses for more than fifty years, but I am definitely not smart enough to identify a "genius routing".
Tim Weiman

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2012, 03:35:43 PM »
Tom,

Wow! If the Tom Doak I know struggles to identify a genius routing, then it must be a really difficult exercise that most here, myself included, will never be able to do.

But, I do find your experience at Royal Melbourne telling. It really feels like one would have to do what you did looking at old maps to even begin to evaluate how Mackenzie did.
Tim Weiman

Tom_Doak

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2012, 03:53:39 PM »
It really feels like one would have to do what you did looking at old maps to even begin to evaluate how Mackenzie did.

Tim:

The question is whether someone else might have easily come up with MacKenzie's solution.  [Just because the previous guy didn't, does not make it genius.] 

The problem is that most people have no idea what the alternatives might have been for any particular piece of property.  Other architects, including myself, are likely to be better judges of that sort of thing, if we can keep our own egos out of the equation.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 03:56:34 PM by Tom_Doak »

Jud_T

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2012, 04:19:48 PM »
I would agree with Shoreacres.  The use of the ravines is simply brilliant.  

I have never played Shoreacres but have been on property.  Please give me an example where the use of a ravine is not textbook.  Did Raynor locate the clubhouse because he felt the ravines made for better golf than the lake.  Now that would be genius.

Well,

First of all the course doesn't need to start and end at the clubhouse, just in the general vicinity, a plus.  Many deride the opening and closing holes as mundane, but they take you into and out of the ravines and set up the roller coaster of a journey.  I can't really imagine anyone making more out of holes 10-15 than Raynor did.  You might feel that stretch is self explanatory after the fact, but personally I'm not sure many would have had the balls to have such a steep drop shot hole as #12 or the blind uphill draw tee shot on #13.  Also the use of the subtler elevation changes on 2 & 15 are really well tied in. 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2012, 04:20:12 PM »
Tom,

Yes, given the limitations most people face - not knowing the alternatives - it has proven real hard, even for folks here to even discuss this topic.

So, to even try requires doing what Rich Goodale did by throwing out an example that many people are familiar with: the ocean holes at Pebble Beach.

As I said, the end result (holes 6-10) are obviously world class. But, was building #7 "genius"?

Damn good, yes, but was it that much better than other plans that could reasonably or easily been identified?

My argument would be that the final plan would have to far surpass other possible plans to reach the "genius" level?

In the Pebble Beach example for me it comes down to the combination of quality and quantity. As I suggested above, the land where 8-10 sit offers the opportunity to build awesome holes. I'm convinced a few other, different awesome holes could have been built.

So on the quality scale. I hesitate to apply "genius".

For me, then, the quantity issue arises. If one built a cape hole where 8 sits with the green further to the right, would one still be able to build awesome holes further along?

Here again,  I believe the answer is yes. So, again, for me it fails the "genius" test. Very good. Yes. But, "genius" not really, IMO.

Now, Royal Melbourne is a different animal. I am inclined to believe the nature of the property makes laying out the routing more challenging. It just doesn't feel like the choices and how to best optimize the features would be so obvious.

Makes it much easier for me to give Mackenzie genius status than Neville and Grant.

Tim Weiman

Gib_Papazian

Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2012, 04:33:32 PM »
Shoreacres was also the first thought I had, but the reason nobody can quite put their finger on what qualifies as "genius" is because everybody has a different definition of what determines a great routing. To me, a golf course with a seamless series of holes and short walks from green to tee on rational ground is the most important quality. As C.B. Macdonald observed: "Mountain climbing is a sport unto itself."

Using this rubric, Succession would have to qualify - regardless of how you feel about the collage of unrelated bunkering and design styles. You putt out and the next tee is never more than 20 paces away. Now, you might have to step over an enormous reptile sunning itself - California pussies like me find alligators a bit unsettling - but the routing feels completely unforced.

There has been quite a bit of mention of Riviera - which I do not think is a particularly clever routing - but Bel Air definitely qualifies. Thomas had to do it with a suspension bridge and a few tunnels, but given the difficulty of what looks like a disjointed site, it is easily walkable and flows together nicely.

There are obviously a variety of reasons that a particular routing is chosen - some aesthetic, but sometimes for practical reasons. When San Mateo coughed up 10 million to redo what is now called Poplar Creek (FKA San Mateo Muni and Coyote Point, AKA "Disgusta National"), I was on the design committee assisting Steve Halsey and Tim Heck. The 1960's slap-dash clubhouse - jammed into a tight corner of the property - was to be torn down and rebuilt pretty much wherever it made sense.

We went through six different routings - the best two wandered the property, but the nines did not return to the clubhouse. The original course did not return either, but the routing was plagued by numerous problems and horrendous drainage issues. Ultimately, we decided (I was vocally in favor of this) to select a routing with two loops of nine holes because it is important to have the option of sending groups off two sets of tees on a public layout. Plus, it encourages more twilight players who do not like finding themselves on a remote corner of the course when the sun sets.

Again, common sense dictated that we settle for a less desirable routing in the name of practicality. Even then, a series of modifications were made after the committee adjourned - including eliminating a terrific bunkerless par-3 as the second hole because of the potential for stack-ups following a short par-5.  Instead, in the name of keeping the pace of play flowing, the second was made into a long, difficult, dogleg par-4. In the end, it was a terrible idea because the third hole (par-3) ended up twice as congested. I wish they had listened to me . . . . . .

The considerations and deciding factor for selecting this routing or that routing are often wholly dependent on who is your audience. I'll bet Fazio thinks those discontinuous cart-ball tracks he gouges out of the land are just ducky from a routing standpoint, but to me, walkability is the prime consideration.     
               
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 04:38:58 PM by Gib Papazian »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2012, 04:35:21 PM »
Doak lists 50-60 courses worthy of studying for their routing in the back of The Anatomy of a Golf Course.  Not sure he would consider them all "genius" (and I'm still not sure how were supposed to interpret that term for purposes of this thread).

Names of note:

Ballybunion
Bel Air
Camargo
The Creek Club
Cruden Bay
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Fisher's Island
High Pointe
Inverness
Lahinch
Long Cove
Machrihanish
Maidstone
Merion
Muirfield
North Berwick (West)
Notts
Pasatiempo
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley
Portmarnock
Prairie Dunes
Prestwick
Royal Adelaide
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne
Royal North Devon
Royal Portrush
Royal St. Georges
San Francisco
Seminole
Shinnecock
Sleepy Hollow
Spyglass Hill
St. Enodoc
St. Georges (Ont.)
The Country Club

There may be a few on here where the genius is in their simplicity.  Sometimes its the decisions not made that result in perfection.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2012, 04:40:37 PM »
Adding one more to the list for the sake of conversation:

Wine Valley - a coherent design from start to finish, a great walk and a tremendous balance between individual holes.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2012, 04:47:26 PM »
Sven,

As you suggest, I really struggle how to define "genius" routing and wish John K as the OP would share what he thinks.

Genius implies a tough standard. It can't just mean building many great golf holes. Rather, I think it should mean the architect was unusually visionary in determining the final routing, that he or she did something significantly better than other qualified architects might have done.
Tim Weiman

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2012, 05:03:02 PM »
Tim,

Please do not expect me to come up with an equation for genius. The first time I recall experiencing genius close up in person was my first view of a Jackson Pollock. It is purely a faith based issue.

I would even say that TPC Sawgrass is routing genius given the hole sequencing.  The psychological influence of the 17th over the course of the entire round is well documented.

Ivan Morris

Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2012, 05:03:33 PM »
The middle 12-holes at Panmure!

Ian Andrew

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2012, 05:09:11 PM »
Front Nine at Royal County Down
Front Nine at San Francisco
Merion East
Pine Valley
Royal Melbourne (West)
Front Nine at Crystal Downs
Prairie Dunes
Seminole
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2012, 05:10:25 PM »
Sven,

As you suggest, I really struggle how to define "genius" routing and wish John K as the OP would share what he thinks.

Genius implies a tough standard. It can't just mean building many great golf holes. Rather, I think it should mean the architect was unusually visionary in determining the final routing, that he or she did something significantly better than other qualified architects might have done.

Tim:

This begs the question, could you have a "genius" routing on a course that itself is not that highly regarded?  Or is does the final outcome have to be great all the way around for the routing to be considered "genius."

I prefer the way Doak described this concept in his book, a routing worthy of study.  However, he neglects to include the list for studying what not to do.

But then again, the concept of "genius" is as subjective as what one looks for in a golf course.  One man's brilliantly conceived double loops of nine on a tight parcel of land that maximizes the available features is another man's ho-hum standard fare that was predetermined by the location of the clubhouse (which may or may not have been in place before the course was conceived).

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2012, 05:23:30 PM »
Sven,

I would not have started this thread if all I had to do was look at the magazine top whatever lists for an answer.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2012, 05:58:17 PM »
John:

Who said anything about magazines?

The question still stands, can you have a good (or genius, if you like) routing on a bad course?

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2012, 06:09:20 PM »
John:

Who said anything about magazines?

The question still stands, can you have a good (or genius, if you like) routing on a bad course?

Sven

Yes, you can have a genius routing on a course that raters do not like.  God forbid that genius is missed by the casual one time visitor. Or even worse, God forbid if genius is in the hands of an unknown architect.  I envy those who see the genius in a Popsicle, but I would never argue the tastiness of one.

mike_malone

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2012, 06:16:55 PM »
 Sorry to be a homer but Rolling Green is routed around a few ridges with significant quick elevation changes. The sharpest elevations are used for par threes. There are 4 par 4's in the first 5 holes; there is only 1 par 4 in the last 5 holes. And I just realized that a week ago! While most of the holes are fairly straight, elevation changes and hills create different looks and playability throughout. The 4 par 5's are bunched with 7 and 9 on the front and 17 and 18 on the back. 7 and 9 run in different directions 7 is quite short and downhill while 9 is uphill and very long. 17 turns to the left and uphill with the slope favoring the tee shot; 18 is downhill turning to the right with a reverse cambor that deflects the tee shot.

As a member you can go out late in the day and create your routing if you don't like this one!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 06:25:43 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Garland Bayley

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2012, 06:16:59 PM »
The Eisenhower interstate roadway system.

How is buying the cheapest land and displacing the people with the least political clout genius?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Davis

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2012, 06:17:18 PM »
Not to state the obvious but the first thing that came to mind was my own inability and lack of enough knowledge to attempt to define "genius". Maybe we could give that a shot first? Then with the enormous combined knowledge on this site (myself excluded) we could arrive at some examples that are as close to this level as possible. As many have stated it's not necessarily the best courses in the world. Arguably a "genius" routing could have taken place in a perfectly flat field (Muirfield, TOC), with little to no natural shapes or significant features to work with. Maybe when there are significant features it takes away from "genius". (BTW, I know those places are perfectly flat, I live in NL)

There is also a catch 22 in this as we all see it in terms of our level of understanding and limited experience in the courses we've been able to see and play or read about. Maybe the more you know the harder it becomes to define. Why can't Tom (Doak) just reel off a list of 10?

Tom, it's hard for me to imagine you can't pick a work of your own and consider it "genius" with all modesty aside. Not trying to put you on the spot but you must have something that you are so enormously proud of that you think, that was "genius" or at least as close as I've come in my own opinion and in the same breath be able to say which other course really is true "genius", if not your own and why that is.

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Tim_Weiman

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2012, 06:22:02 PM »
John K:

I am curious to hear more of your own thoughts since you have raised such an interesting topic.

What is a genius routing?


Sven,

Honestly, I am not sure about the correlation between routing skill and the overall quality of a golf course. Take a place like Winged Foot. It has always been very highly rated, but I don't recall anyone standing up and saying it has a great routing. Indeed, I would be bored even trying to discuss its routing.

But, down the street at Quaker Ridge there seems to be a place where it would be much more interesting to discuss how Tillinghast did with the routing. The scale of the property is smaller (I think) and it the land certainly has more more movement.


Tim Weiman

Jeb Bearer

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2012, 06:28:12 PM »
This is interesting. It would seem that the quality of a routing is completely independent of the overall quality of the course. For instance, on a small, oddly shaped, severe site, it could be tremendously difficult to route 18 holes; one might end up with a pretty good course that has some awkward holes, which actually represents the best possible routing for that site.

Conversely, some great courses might have just routed themselves, so to speak. For example, TOC is located on a long, narrow tract barely two playing corridors wide, which necessitated the present configuration of the holes.

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2012, 06:43:07 PM »
David/Jeb,

I shouldn't even attempt to speak for Tom, but there is only one of his courses that Tom talked to me with pride about his routing effort and that involved Lost Dunes which would certainly qualify as a tough site.

This was many years ago now, but highlighting the routing effort for Lost Dunes was at once understandable and courageous. There is quite a walk from the clubhouse to the first tee - no intimacy like the first tee at Merion! - so it would be easy to criticize the routing. But, Tom argued, well before he achieved the success he has come to enjoy, that this really was the best option for the property despite its unconventional approach.

Tom argued that you just couldn't start and finish near the clubhouse and so it was better to just accept that and get the long walk out of the way before starting the round.

It is interesting because I am a huge fan of Stonewall. It is one of my very favorite places. I love many things about it, including how close and intimate the 1st tee and the 18th green are to the clubhouse.

Lost Dunes just doesn't have that feature, but I can't say the routing effort is any less impressive.
Tim Weiman

Mac Plumart

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Re: Examples of routing genius.
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2012, 06:43:26 PM »
it's hard for me to imagine you can't pick a work of your own and consider it "genius" with all modesty aside

David, he has done so on this very site on a previous thread.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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