[Tom_Doak]

I would second the nomination of Lost Dunes.  Frankly it probably should have come up sooner.  Between the nature of the site, the highway and all the environmental restrictions they apparently faced, the result is pretty amazing.  Perhaps the back 9 was a bit more self evident, but that doesn't take anything away from the achievement.

I'd call it the most "ballsy" routing, with forced walk/ride to two tees, in order to end at the clubhouse while dealing with the bisecting Interstate highway. And this at a course that emphasizes walking!  Fabulous.

All of those decisions are the result of constraints ... not just the Interstate, but also the very large Conservation Area which had been established by the mining company upon retirement of their project.  [It is a LOT easier to work on these things if you are working with the company that operated the mine site, instead of with a future property owner who has already had many promises made for him.]

That said, two different friends told me last year that they would like to see us take on more jobs with constraints.  We've gotten so spoiled with "perfect" sites that the solutions start to look similar.  Sites with severe constraints are sometimes what we need to stretch our thinking and produce something really unique.

[Ted Cahill]

Last year I drove to Bandon and arrived in time for a late nine.  The only course I could get out on was Pacific Dunes.  I barely had 9 holes of daylight left and I expected to be hoofing in from somewhere when the light went out.  As I came off of 3 green- it occured to me I could just turn right instead of left and hop right on 13 tee and finish my round on the back.  It was a wonderful late evening emergency nine that ended at the clubhouse.  I couldn't help but think that this option was probably considered when the routing was done... felt genius to me.

[Don_Mahaffey]

 Many moons ago when I was a young beach bum ditching school to go surfing, I tried my hand at competitive surfing. My coach told me the world's greatest competitive surfers had a way of making it look like they were surfing slow and causal on big, fast, powerful waves, and surfing fast and quick on smaller, weak, and mushy waves. What's the tie in to routing? I think a good routing on severe property has a way of softening the climbs and giving the appearance of "level' shots While a routing on a flat piece of land (combined with construction skill) brings the player away from the flatness and gives the illusion of some elevation changes.

[Bill_McBride]

Many moons ago when I was a young beach bum ditching school to go surfing, I tried my hand at competitive surfing. My coach told me the world's greatest competitive surfers had a way of making it look like they were surfing slow and causal on big, fast, powerful waves, and surfing fast and quick on smaller, weak, and mushy waves. What's the tie in to routing? I think a good routing on severe property has a way of softening the climbs and giving the appearance of "level' shots While a routing on a flat piece of land (combined with construction skill) brings the player away from the flatness and gives the illusion of some elevation changes.

Capilano is a great example of a great routing that makes a very hilly course an easy walk.   I haven't played any other Thompson courses but will get to play Highland Links in August during my trip to Cabot Links.

[William_G]

How about how RTJ remodeled Eugene CC by reversing the entire course and the members playing it through out the remodel.

no question the epiphany RTJ had was a stroke of genius on many levels

you have RTJ greens with 1929/classic fairways where no bulldozer has set foot preserving the natural undulations of the Willamette river flood plain between 100+year old cedars

exactly the type of constraints TD was referring to in what happened at Eugene CC makes it a one of a kind

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,

Perhaps I didn't make clear that, of course, routing is about "getting the most out of the property".

But, this thread got me excited and took me back to a conversation I had with Brian Lewis in the old Sleeping Bear days circa 1995. Brian asked me what I thought was missing in the world of golf course architecture literature.

So  I gave Brian what  I thought was the right answer: "a good book about the life and work of Alister Mackenzie". Of course, Brian, struggling to make money producing golf architecture books, liked my answer and I was delighted when he shared with me some of the background that eventually became your book. I just had to be patient.

Ask me the same question today and with equal confidence I would say it is a book about the creative process focused on routing decisions. It would be something like "the great golf courses: critical design decisions made by the architects".

You would be the first to point out that such a book is easier to imagine than it would be to actually write. For the ODGs who produced the classics, I doubt there are many examples where adequate research material and documentation actually exists. We have famous stories like Mackenzie and Hollins on the 16th at Cypress Point, but how much contemporaneous documentation really exists on the ODGs as they were making critical design decisions?

Perhaps we could have more luck with modern architects. Perhaps there is more documentation. At a minimum, we have the advantage that they are alive and can tell their story. But, will they? Can they? And, then, how would we present far more detail about this topic in a form that would attract a wide audience?

So, we are left with catchy phases ("getting the most out of a property") or sometimes funny stories ("Mackenzie forgot to include a 9th hole at Crystal Downs"). But, really we don't have much on the design process: how, exactly, was great design accomplished?

It may not seem relevant, but recently I read a very interesting book about D-Day, about my sixth read about the Normandy invasion. "Omaha Beach: A Flawed Victory" was unique. The book includes very little about the battle itself. There is no dramatic account of "saving private Ryan".

Instead, the author focuses entirely on the planning process and all that happened and decisions that were made before the bullets started flying. What was the British view about how to conduct amphibious landings? What was the American view? Why were they so different? How did the planners and senior leaders attempt to reconcile and compromise the competing views? Were their choices rational or were they saved by the sheer bravery of those with boots on the ground?

Obviously, quite a bit of research was required to produce such a book. The planning history, arguably, went back at least twenty years when the views of critical players were  initially formed. It was a fascinating perspective.

For comparison, not every golf course is Omaha Beach. Not every project has multiple design teams with different views that need to be reconciled. But, I am fairly sure the design process often includes far more questions - just about routing - than it appears when the final product is beautifully laid out for us to play.

I just wish we could have more case studies on the questions architects faced and what was the thought process as they answered the critical design questions. Maybe then we could sort out those routing efforts that were truly special. Or to borrow from the logic of the CG, what were the 8s, 9s and 10s of routing efforts and why.

[Jason Thurman]

I keep coming back to Idle Hour, a truly under-the-radar but excellent Ross course in Lexington. With a recent renovation, it's now 7100 yards or so from the tips on a parcel of land not much bigger than 100 acres that never feels cramped (a member of their staff called it 90 acres, but I find that pretty hard to believe). On an unspectacular site, its holes wind around in seemingly endless directions. This gives the illusion of more "movement" in the property than there truly is, and also keeps the wind coming from different directions throughout while covering every section of the property and incorporating the natural features meaningfully. The routing crosses itself five times by my count which serves to give the round an intimacy and continuity while also making it possible to play holes in different sequences or create shorter loops for those playing a few holes on a tight schedule. On top of all that, the transitions are short, the course is exceptional, and it's the rare course on which I've used every club in my bag during a single play.

Is it truly genius? Maybe not. But I could definitely accept it as the work of a genius and part of the testimony that makes Ross' body of work as a router particularly excellent.

[Tom_Doak]

I just wish we could have more case studies on the questions architects faced and what was the thought process as they answered the critical design questions. Maybe then we could sort out those routing efforts that were truly special. Or to borrow from the logic of the CG, what were the 8s, 9s and 10s of routing efforts and why.

Tim:

I don't think anybody can reconstruct how great routings were done ... I think you have to have been the one doing them to know why they turned out as they did.

I've documented this for Pacific Dunes [it's not in print yet] and Old Macdonald [on film]; I've also done it for Sebonack, although only a few select students and interns have seen me go through that one.

I have always felt that this was the biggest hole in the literature about golf architecture [not discounting Forrest Richardson's book on the subject].  Maybe I need to concentrate on that part of the writing.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,

My lament is that the most interesting aspect of golf architecture (IMO) is also possibly the least documented. Perhaps the Royal Melbourne example would be an opportunity.

Sebonack would be tough. The author of the Omaha Beach book I mentioned is pretty fair when it comes to explaining the differences in the British and the American planning assumptions. Both seem quite reasonable. But, eventually in the book he spells out the planning flaws and it does make some famous people no longer with us look bad  - at a cost of lives not a misplaced bunker.

[Jeb Bearer]

Jeremy Glenn has a very nice piece on what a good routing is, using Banff Springs as a case study, in the IMO section.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/banff-springs-by-jeremy-glenn/

[JC Urbina]

Tom,

I think they can be reconstructed,  Look how many times we walked Pacific Dunes, each time making minor adjustmants.  I can still remember a lot of the original layout and would honestly say each revision had some deletions and additons that had to be carefully weighed.

Like Old Macdonald each was walked and discussed many times over and allowing the piece of paper to be fluid and without finality made  each revision better.  Some of the routings are pure luck as you know and others are carefully scouted out.

Ballyneal is another example of carefully weighing each hole in the routing and deciding what holes had to go and which coiuld remain.  It was hard to let some of the holes go.

I still think of what is now the 5th at Pacific Dunes that was going to play up and over the green as it sits today with the landing area on hole # 9 fairway and the green perched up high on the knob where 9 upper green and 10 tee now sits. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeb,

Wow! Jeremy comes along and criticizes the routing at Pebble Beach as part of making the case for the routing at Banff.

I don't know. Banff isn't Pebble and to make such an argument - Pebble's #7 green should have been where the 10th green sits - one would have to show the entire re-design for Pebble. Then, I would stop and listen. In any case, I'm still not sure how it would make the case for Banff.

Studying golf architecture takes time, money and the willingness to travel. I learned long ago that if you are going to travel between continents, across oceans or even just cross country you want to visit courses that have their own unique character. If you, the traveler, do find unique sites, you certainly don't want the architect simply applying a formula.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim,

I believe folks like you and Tom could "re-construct", but to present the experience you and Tom had at Old Macdonald or Pacific Dunes would take being quite generous with your time.

A project like Sebonack is different animal. I doubt there is a practical or wise way to do it.

I am particularly fascinated by Pine Valley. It just doesn't seem like people often compliment the routing. That gets lost amongst all the other accolades. But, how could so many great holes have been produced if the routing effort  as opposed to other aspects of design and construction wasn't itself truly special or "genius"?

[Jeb Bearer]

Jeb,

Wow! Jeremy comes along and criticizes the routing at Pebble Beach as part of making the case for the routing at Banff.

I don't know. Banff isn't Pebble and to make such an argument - Pebble's #7 green should have been where the 10th green sits - one would have to show the entire re-design for Pebble. Then, I would stop and listen. In any case, I'm still not sure how it would make the case for Banff.

Studying golf architecture takes time, money and the willingness to travel. I learned long ago that if you are going to travel between continents, across oceans or even just cross country you want to visit courses that have their own unique character. If you, the traveler, do find unique sites, you certainly don't want the architect simply applying a formula.

I don't think he was saying 7 green should be where 10 green is, I think he meant that the course should turn and move to another standout landmark after the climax of the peninsula. I've never played Pebble so can't testify to how the routing flows at that end, but what Jeremy's saying makes sense: the routing should take the golfer out to the property's best features, those that one would want to see if you were just going for a walk.

That being said, I hear what you're saying about a formula, what works splendidly for one site, like Banff, might not be ideal for another, like Pebble.

[Jeb Bearer]

I am particularly fascinated by Pine Valley. It just doesn't seem like people often compliment the routing. That gets lost amongst all the other accolades. But, how could so many great holes have been produced if the routing effort  as opposed to other aspects of design and construction wasn't itself truly special or "genius"?

Tim,

Good point. I think of the story that Colt found the par 3 5th to transport the golfer from the 4th to the ridge that holds the 6th. In that case, he saw a way to get from one portion of the property to another that Crump (and others?) didn't. Could that be a genius moment?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Is routing a mathematical/engineering calculation or an artistic endeavor? 

1) Is routing the act of finding a functional foundation for the art that comes later?  Focus on function
2)  Is routing primarily about finding golf holes that work (function) and fit with our idea of what a course should be?  Focus on golf
3) Or is it about finding natural "art" that can function as golf features and then using parts of both questions from above to connect the dots?  Focus on art

Is routing a combo of all three with the genius appearing when the proper ratios are nailed for a certain piece of ground.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeb,

It could be. But, I'd love to know exactly how much documentation there is about how George Crump took the design as far as he did.

I am also fascinated by #7. Hardly the most interesting part of the property. So, there goes a par 5, an "unreachable" with the island fairways and isolation that became themes for the entire course.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim,

I believe folks like you and Tom could "re-construct", but to present the experience you and Tom had at Old Macdonald or Pacific Dunes would take being quite generous with your time.

A project like Sebonack is different animal. I doubt there is a practical or wise way to do it.

Tim:

Sebonack only took a weekend to route.  I did one version of it, and the only thing that changed was that I shortened the sixth hole, and Jack lengthened it back to where I had drawn it to begin with.  The "design" involved many many changes and compromises, but the routing was as quick and logical as could be ... because there was NOT an unlimited amount of land to work with.


Jim:

I had forgotten about the hole you describe over the top of #5 ... because it was only considered for a couple of days in the design, between that first routing I drew [site unseen, before we knew where the 7th hole at Bandon Dunes was ], and the second routing [which had a par-5 hole playing up to #5 green from around #12 green, which we still couldn't get to because of the gorse].  It is true, though, that we considered and discarded a lot more holes than we ever presented to Mike ... though many of them were considered only briefly.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom and Jim:

Since there isn't a book or video on the subject, I'd be greatly interested in hearing a bit more about the routing process at Ballyneal.

As Jim noted (and similar to what we've heard about the process at Sand Hills), there must have been hundreds of different holes that went by the wayside in the process of fitting together the final result.  

Was there a starting point, a predetermined clubhouse location, obvious greensites, a natural way to walk the property or features that you knew had to be included in a certain way that influenced the decisions you made?

Also, can you convince Bill and Ben to sign up for an account so we can go through the same process for that course in Nebraska?

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Melvyn has proof that Old Tom contributed to that this process although no one can be 100% clear about who decided exactly what.  It would take Pat Mucci to play the course without being stopped in your tracks at how beautifully it all works out.  It all depends waht you want from a Golf Course, Pat may not see genius in this but I do.

Tony,

Would you cite for me, with detailed specificity, where I was critical of North Berwick ?

Or do you just make up crap like this out of ignorance ?

[Mac Plumart]

Melvyn has proof that Old Tom contributed to that this process although no one can be 100% clear about who decided exactly what.  It would take Pat Mucci to play the course without being stopped in your tracks at how beautifully it all works out.  It all depends waht you want from a Golf Course, Pat may not see genius in this but I do.

Tony,

Would you cite for me, with detailed specificity, where I was critical of North Berwick ?

Or do you just make up crap like this out of ignorance ?

Please don't do this on this thread, guys.

I am really enjoying this discussion and we've got some great discussion going.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom and Jim:

Since there isn't a book or video on the subject, I'd be greatly interested in hearing a bit more about the routing process at Ballyneal.

As Jim noted (and similar to what we've heard about the process at Sand Hills), there must have been hundreds of different holes that went by the wayside in the process of fitting together the final result.  

Was there a starting point, a predetermined clubhouse location, obvious greensites, a natural way to walk the property or features that you knew had to be included in a certain way that influenced the decisions you made?

Also, can you convince Bill and Ben to sign up for an account so we can go through the same process for that course in Nebraska?

Sven

Sven:

The routing process for Ballyneal is not as well documented as some other courses I've done.  With no funding on hand for the project at the start, I made several visits over +/- 18 months as I was passing through on various occasions, and it seemed like I never had long enough on site to get my bearings and get some holes pieced together before I had to leave again.  Having so much land to work with presented a lot of different options, but it wasn't like Sand Hills where Bill and Ben recorded them all at once.  I do have a topo map which has a bunch of pencil-sketched centerlines on it for maybe 50 potential holes, but some of those were never really seriously considered, other than on paper.

Jim made a couple of visits before I made my first, and takes credit for the routing of the 8th hole, even though he and Don couldn't find it again when they went back to stake out some holes the next winter.    Sadly, I can't remember who was with me the day we went "off the reservation" to find the green site for #2, the third hole, and the fourth tee, all of which were off the topo map for the 640 acres we thought we were restricted to.

The clubhouse was not absolutely fixed, but the access point to the site WAS fixed and from a practical ($$) standpoint it was important to minimize the length of the entrance.  We found the corridors for 1 - 9 - 10 - 18 pretty quickly, though the 18th hole shifted about 100 yards between the hole I'd always drawn on the plan and the hole we actually built, after a lot of feedback that I was finishing too far from the clubhouse.

Some plans had some additional holes around the back of the dune to the right of #17, but that would have meant one loop longer than nine holes and the other loop shorter; once we finally found our holes 2-3-4, the two loops of nine made much more sense.

[Sven Nilsen]

Didn't a similar thing happen at Pac Dunes regarding "finding" additional land for the course?  I may have the story backwards, but I seem to remember that Keiser obtained some land on the north end of the property after you had started looking at the project.

I've been contrasting the Ballyneal site with the property you had for Barnbougle, which seems to have had a much more obvious sequence of playing corridors.  Each site asks different questions.  At Barnbougle, you could have avoided the figure 8 and mixed up the seaside/inland holes on each side.  You could have also chosen different sites for the "hitches" in the routing (meaning the placement of the 7th and how you negotiated the land that is the 12th and 13th.

At Ballyneal, I am continually amazed at the ease of the transfer between holes.  I think it was Bill Coore who talked about finding a way to walk a piece of property, and that a course should (or could) follow the way you might wander a piece of land if you were just going out for a stroll.  I also seem to recall stories of architects following old animal trails and using the "natural" pathways as a bit of guide to determine how to navigate a piece of property.

Throw in the Lost Dunes as discussed earlier, and you've got a third style of routing, one that is less about narrowing down the possibilities and more about just finding loops that work.  I remember our conversation regarding the location of the clubhouse and the limitations on finding playable land in that area and how that resulted in you having to build 9 as a par 3. 

One of the things that puzzles me about the question of "genius" in the routing process is that so much of any determination is a comparison against what else could have been accomplished.  Since those courses were never put on the land, it takes a great deal of imagination to compare a course that was actually built against the other alternatives.  In some cases, its not that hard.  I can picture what the front 9 at Barnbougle would have been like if you played it in reverse (which would eliminate features like the bunker on the fourth from playing like it does).  But for a site like Lost Dunes, I can't begin to imagine how you would deal with areas like the convergence of the 10th green, 11th tee, 12th green and 13th green in any other way than how they were built.

Just some thougths,

Sven

[JC Urbina]

Tom,

 Rupert and I were with you the day you crossed the fence over to # 2 green, 3 tees and the potential for # 4 fairway which was on the other side of the fence where # 4 sits today, it is still sitting there untouched.  That day  Rupert looked at me and said I got all this Frickken land and he is on the other side of the fence. I told Rupert "hey we just started it may get worse when we head south", he laughed.

I remember telling Rupert if you don't build any other hole build # 8 and 16 not yet routed but visually stunning on that cold snowy day.  When we first toured the site on ATV's that bitter cold February day I knew these two holes would survive the smorgasbord of holes yet to be discovered.

Remember the par 4 hole that started on the 7th green at Bandon( before we knew Bandons 7th green existed ) and went west down around the big dune and ended up where 10 green now sits today.

Sven,

I still have the Ballyneal routing on the Topo map, it has many folded creases and probably should be only handled one more time to make a copy.  It contains all of the potential holes penciled in and some that we walked that didn't make the final cut.  On one walk I even took my kids and went strolling through the dunes with Rupert and kids in tow.  I probably made a dozen or more trips over a two year period, sometimes staying with Rupert or hanging out at the local hotel overnight.

The 13th hole , 14th green and 15 tees were not even on land that Mike owned when we first started playing with the routing  

Tim,

I didn't comment on the Sebonack routing because I knew when Tom and I first walked the site with his routing in hand I couldn't add one item other then to try and convince him to relocate the lake. He was confident he had that one nailed.  Since I had seen the other routings I knew this was the one.
 
I would be happy to sit on another bench in Scotland to talk about the routings and how they come together.  Only a few people would be interested but it is really food for thought.

Don,

Some routings are mechanical others are thoughtful.  Some require imagination other are waiting there for you to scrape of the native grasses.  I could go thorugh every green at Paciific Dunes and tell you how many inches were moved and other required just a TOUCH more.

I think the proper ratios are important but one you may have not thought of.  I was never afraid to try and move  something around  and quickly put it back if it didn't work.  

The 4th green at Pacific Dunes went through a lot of rendentions even moving it back towards the tee from where it sits today. With some luck you can't tell what landforms were played with before the final green was seeded.

[Paul OConnor]

At Olympia Fields North, and with no contrived long walks between holes, one can easily play courses of between 2 and 18 holes, starting on the 1st and ending on either the 9th or 18th.  It's helpful if no one else is on the course.

2 Holes - 1,9
3 Holes - 1,11,18
4 Holes - 1,2,8,9
5 Holes - 1,2,8,11,18
6 Holes - 1,2,3,7,8,9
7 Holes - 1,2,3,6,7,8,9
8 Holes - 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,9
9 Holes - 1-9
10 Holes - 1-8,11,18
11 Holes - 1,11-18,10,9
12 Holes - 1-9,10,11,18
13 Holes - 1,2,3,7,8,9,10-13,16-18
14 Holes - 1,2,3,6-13,16,17,18
15 Holes - 1,2,3,7-18
16 Holes - 1,2,3,6-18
17 Holes - 1-5,7-18
18 Holes - 1-18

In my opinion, one of the reasons the routing of OFCC North is so brilliant.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()