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Adam Lawrence

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Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« on: December 14, 2012, 04:48:43 AM »
Those who follow Sunningdale head greenkeeper Murray Long on Twitter will probably have seen this already, but here's a rather lovely picture that Murray posted yesterday. As many know, he has spent the last few years researching and working to find evidence in the ground of Colt's original holes six to ten on the New course - these were abandoned in the 1930s as the members judged them too tough a walk, and eventually, after a number of false starts involving Tom Simpson, today's holes emerged.

Murray and his crew have cleared tree growth from much of the area where the holes were, but obviously that's as far as they can go unless the club decides it wants to put the holes back into play - except on the tenth hole, which is where the old loop and the current holes converge. Colt's original tenth was a par three, as the hole is today, but playing from a high tee on the ridge line to the left of the green. It's a fine par three from today's tee as well, but as the photo shows, the green was clearly designed with the approach from the old tee in mind. Amazingly, after almost eighty years out of play, there's still a considerable amount of fescue on the old teeing ground, which is easily visible on the ridge. And yesterday, Murray hit the first shot on the 'old' hole since 1935! Congratulations to him and his guys.

Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2012, 05:22:14 AM »
Could you give us a comparison photo / angle, Adam?

I've only walked the two Sunningdale courses and never saw the 10th on the New... Did see where the abondened holes were in general... Thought they were all out to the right of 6?

Memory fading though


Adam Lawrence

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012, 05:27:45 AM »
Here's Ran's photo from his profile. The tee is quite a long way back from where this shot was taken though.

Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

David_Elvins

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012, 06:19:29 AM »
Any plan to bring back the old Colt holes at Sunningdale would be misguided, imo. 

The course is not perfect but the current routing is almost perfect. One of the greatest routings in the world. 

And the current tenth tee is a big part of that.  What an amazing unique tee location. To lose the course's greatest strength - its routing - in the name of restoring its pedigree, would be a poor use of resources, when there is other parts of the course that could be improved.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tom Kelly

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2012, 07:10:22 AM »
The hole looks great from that new/old angle and really makes it obvious that the green was designed and built to receive play from that angle, but I think I agree with Brian that the current tee is possibly better as it makes the hole unlike anything I have ever played elsewhere and feel slightly awkward in a good way. It would be nice to have the old tee rebuilt though as an alternative tee to play from every now and then which I assume will happen given the time and effort devoted to clearing the trees or is there another motive to the clearance?

David, I understand your point but the land where the old holes were located just looks far too good to disregard rebuilding the holes straight off imo. I think it would be great to see them rebuilt as an alternative loop but leave the current holes as is. I am not sure how the logistics of incorporating them into play would work though. Out of interest where else on the course do you think needs more attention? 15th-17th?


John Mayhugh

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2012, 08:10:37 AM »
Thanks for the photos.   I realize that the photos were taken from different distances and cannot comment on playing, but the hole does seem more attractive from the old tee.

I really hope to make it to Sunningdale sometime in 2013.

Ivan Morris

Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2012, 05:31:07 PM »
I know this hole well and have always enjoy playing it. It's a cracking par-3. The new, or is it the old, tee seems to fit my eye better than than the one I was used to playing from. I feel a birdie coming on! Looking forward to the day, not too far hence, when I might get a chance to see if my fighting talk is 'thrun' back in my face by the laughing Gods of golf? Well done Murray Long and Adam Lawrence.   

David_Elvins

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 06:11:19 PM »
Thanks for the photos.   I realize that the photos were taken from different distances and cannot comment on playing, but the hole does seem more attractive from the old tee.

I really hope to make it to Sunningdale sometime in 2013.

John,

Whilst the green orientation looks better from the new tee, the photos don't really show how cool the existing tee location is.  

The tee sits well above green level, terraced into a hill behind it, with pine covered ridges above tee level to the left and right, the ridges run down towards the green, fanning out slightly along it's length. It is a magical intimate setting, and relatively unique in the world of golf.  

Here is a photo that gives some idea.  It is an amazing bit of routing and one of the reasons why I think Sunningdale New is one of the best routings in golf. 



And here is a photo taken of the tee and trees on the left. It's not often I take a photo of a tee and trees.  I really hope that the tree clearing for the new tee has not ruined the great feel that the trees on the left give to the hole.  

« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 06:13:30 PM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David_Elvins

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2012, 06:28:42 PM »
David, I understand your point but the land where the old holes were located just looks far too good to disregard rebuilding the holes straight off imo.

I agree, the land looks amazing.  but the current stretch of 6-9 is pretty amaizing too. 

When I posted previously, I was mistakenly thinking that some change to the existing routing would be required if the 4 original colt holes were built.

As for where effort should be focussed, I think most (all) of the world's top courses have significantly more room to play than Sunningdale.  It is very narrow around the greens and off the tee.   
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2012, 06:33:23 PM »
Could someone again remind me of the Colt-Simpson-Colt history of those holes?... Thanks... Ally

BCrosby

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2012, 08:16:22 PM »
Could someone again remind me of the Colt-Simpson-Colt history of those holes?... Thanks... Ally

Allow me to second Ally's request. I remember seeing an overlay of Simpson's holes and the Colt holes on GCA a couple of years ago. Are the current holes 6 - 10 Simpson's?

Bob

Sean_A

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry! New
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 02:18:02 AM »
I like the idea of exploring a new 6-10, though losing the 6th would be a huge blow the New - this is one of the best par 5s in the country.  I am not overly enamoured with 7-10.  9 is a good hole, but its quality is hampered by an overly narrow fairway.  The old Colt holes must be very hilly to outdo the Simpson holes.  

On the 10th, I think the tee shot is slightly awkward, it is evident that the better and easier angle is from on the hill.  This was revelation when I looked at the area.  

While it wouldn't really work unless the course is fairly empty, I like the idea of a 5 hole passing lane to get around slow players or perhaps a society.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 07:36:46 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul_Turner

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 07:23:27 AM »
Thanks for posting the pic Adam. 

I think the hole is still some way behind its peak.

Ally

Here's quick recap.

Colt's original 6th hole was on similar terrain to today's 9th but the green was farther left.  You then played a clockwise loop of 7,8,9 all par 4s and all abandoned now.  The farthest point was the 8th green which was near to the 10th Old tee and the 9th was roughly parallel to the 10th Old.  You then played 10th New from the tee that Adam posted.

Simpson abandoned Colt's 7-10 and replaced these with 4 holes with newly leased land in the area that currently has the 6-8 loop.  But he had them going in the opposite (clockwise) direction.  Later Colt and Morrison reversed this 4 hole loop direction and created the current 3hole  6-8 loop (although Pennink moved the 8th green later) and reinstated the 10th from the modern tee.

Simpson had also shifted the 4th and 12th greens to lower ground.  A bizarre decision. Colt and Morrison restored the original green sites.

I thought perhaps the club was looking to restore this 7-9 Colt loop because the lease was up for the St John's college land (where the current 6-8 loop is located)?  I'm not sure there's much point in having the restored 10th tee without restoring that original 7-9 loop.  An alternate loop would be a bit quirky but not a bad thing.  The old holes looked spectacular enough.

I wouldn't want to see the current 6-8 loop replaced. Everyone loves the 6th and it's the most "heathy" part of the course.   You'd also lose quite a lot of length if those holes were replaced with the original Colt loop (two medium par 4s and one short par 4).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 07:30:13 AM by Paul_Turner »
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Paul_Turner

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2012, 07:45:49 AM »
Actually there is precedent with an alternate loop.

The original Colt 7-9 loop and the 10th tee above were not immediately abandoned in 1934/5 those holes continued to be played as an alternate loop until WW2.  They were not reinstated after the war.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Niall C

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Re: Sunningdale New's tenth hole - Welcome back Harry!
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2012, 07:59:49 AM »
Adam

Many thinks for the link and the comparative photos. Looks a cracking hole from weither green although the winter photo makers it look as though the back of the left hand bunker has been reduced and perhaps the small bank back left of the green has been softened also. Probably just the frost making it appear that way but do you know if they touched the green at all ?

Niall

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