Crystal Downs Country Club: A pictorial!!!

[Kyle Henderson]

I played this course twice with Tom Doak. Both times I was given a running commentary on the architecture and the correct shot.

That sounds like an amazing experience. My host and our playing partner are longtime members. I'd be curious if their suggestions for playing the course match those of architects that know the course intimately like Sir Doak or Sir DeVries.

[Jud_T]

Kyle,

How would you split 10 rounds Between CD and Kingsley, access aside?

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle,

How would you split 10 rounds Between CD and Kingsley, access aside?

Well, I played Kingsley 6 times over 2 days, so at this point I'm a bit more keen to repeat play at CD!

That aside, I think Kingsley stacks up quite well. I'd probably split the rounds evenly. Certainly, I wouldn't tip the scale more than 6:4.

[Adam Clayman]

The rough around the 3 sisters on #5 is probably for ease of maintenance.

Or for continuity with the remainder?

[Mac Plumart]

Okay, I'll stop talking about mowing lines after this...but another example might be the widening of 1 fairway to get the bunker on the right hand side to become a fairway bunker rather than a bunker that is nestled between the rough and the native.  At least, I think that might make some sense.

Other than my maintenance nitpicking, I thought/think the architecture of the course is incredible.  Truly world-class.


Jud...how would you split 10 rounds between The Downs and Kingsley?  I'm 8 to 2 Kingsley, personally.  Although, I'd leap at the chance to play either.  Both are great, IMO.

[Jud_T]

Mac,

I'd probably be 7-3 Kingsley.  Obviously I'm not impartial.  The Downs is brilliant.  I'd need more than 1 play to give it an honest comparison.  Seems to me that it's pretty tough for the older well-to-do residential community it serves (?).  Also the 17th hole is probably worse than anything at Kingsley, although the 5th might be better than anything at Kingsley.  I think I prefer Kingsley as a day to day course and the firm and fast conditions are arguably better.  The speeds they run those greens at the Downs would lead me to drink even more than I do currently...

[Mac Plumart]

Jud, I'm 100% with you.  For me, slow the greens down...tweak the mowing patterns...and the true brilliance of the architecture at Crystal Downs shines through even more than it already does.  And, I'd bet, the members would like it more.

[Zack Molnar]

Jud and Mac,

Why do you skew your splits so much towards Kingsley? I've had the pleasure of playing Kingsley and I absolutely love it, but not Crystal. Why do you see Kingsley as being that much better/more enjoyable?

[Mac Plumart]

Zack...

For me, it really comes to the maintenance.  Crystal Downs probably has the better architecture (just look at those photos), but the maintenance meld seems way off to me.  As I've mentioned, the mowing lines seem to negate some of the design intent.  And the greens are WAY too fast.  Due to the green contours, this makes many recovery shots, approaches, and putts strained...at best.

Kingsley has some over the top stuff on, most notably 9 green, but I love that extreme type of stuff.  So it fits with my idea of what fun golf is all about.


I mention, again, that The Downs is really, really something special.  I am not bagging on it.  I am suggesting that with some tweaks to maintenance it could be better AND more fun. 

But golf courses analysis is subjective and these are simply my opinions.

[Kyle Henderson]

Jud,

The 17th at Crystal is a bit extreme, but when I was there the fairway was holding pretty well. I'm sure members are well-practiced hitting off of side slopes!

Kingsley Club is tremendous and easy to love right out of the gates. I sctuslly tend to prefer modern courses as well, but I'd have a tough time picking KC as the superior course just yet. After a handful of rounds, I found it rather easy to predict the outcome of each hole at KC. At CD, I would think results might vary a bit more with daily pins, etc.

They're both worthy of elite status.

[Jud_T]

Zack,

The fescue turf at Kingsley is probably the best firm & fast links playing surface in the country.  This adds immeasurably to the fun of playing the course.  CD, like Kingsley, seems to be a course that takes dozens of plays to truly figure out, so when I get 20 rounds under my belt there I'll let you know if I revise my thinking.    I'm not saying Kingsley's a better course, just the one I'd choose to play more frequently.  This of course is probably biased by the fact that I'm pretty comfortable and have a lot of local knowledge at Kingsley and not so at the Downs.  Knowing where to miss and where you absolutely can't miss at Kingsley is critical to playing the course without a couple of X's.  The Downs is similar I'd guess.  The rating and slope might be higher at the Downs as well.  Combined with greens running on the edge it's a tougher grind IMO, at least with my mediocre skills.  I have heard similar 10 round weightings from better GCA players as well however, whether they'll admit it publicly or not.  You'd love it I'm sure however...In any case I didn't intend to threadjack, so back to your previously scheduled programming...

[Sean_A]

Kyle

Thanks for the pix. 

I too curled a lip at the mowing lines.  Its hard to ignore in photos when the eye is so directly focused. 

Maybe one day I will make it up there for a few days to include Kingsley - its a bloody long drive from Detroit. 

5-9 looks to be an outstanding run of holes.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - re the mowing lines: indeed, visually there can be little defence for them, but in terms of playablity I don't understand them either. In my one play, I scored poorly (i.e. worse than I usually do). I don't think anyone (who's not a pro or a very good amateur) would find CD 'easy'. So why make it harder? My best drive of the day was probably my first drive, on the 440+ Par 4. I hit it long (for me) and pretty straight (for me) -- and even tried and almost managed to hit the correct side of the fairway. But it turnd a little too left, just a little, and I was in the rough (rough that, with lovelier and more architecturally-supportive mowing lines, would not have been there.) I didn't need th extra hard work, and, while I did manage to hit a decent second out of the rough I didn't stay on the green and it bounded over and I was above the hole and I started my round with a 6.  I think a 5 wouldn't been penality enough for a decent but not great drive.

PS - if you ever do get there, I'd love to hear what you think of the Par 3s. Seemingly I stand alone in finding them the most appealing part of a very appealing course.

Peter

[Tim Leahy]

Great pics! This looks like a course that could be built in the California foothills if they ever start building courses in Cali again.

[Michael Herrmann]

I still can't believe I had to pass on an invite to play CD this past summer while in Traverse City.  Just a beautiful setting for a course and wonderful example of a thinking man's course.

In my defense, I was on a family vacation and was on #5 tee at Kinglsey when I was asked if I could join my fellow playing partners for their afternoon round at CD.  I smartly figured that a 36 hole day halfway through our family vacation (when I was already generously granted the time for 18 at KC) would have sufficiently ticked off my better half.  Just hope it wasn't the last time I get an invite to go experience The Downs.

[Kyle Henderson]

Sir PP,
The par 3s are memorable (maybe not the 3rd so much), but none of them shine like 5-8,15,17, and 18 IMHO.

Sir Sheehy,
My favorite were designed by a handful or architects:
Doak: Ballyneal, Barnbougle, Pac Dunes
C &C: Clear Creek, Sand Hills, Friars Head, Lost Farm
MacKenzie: CPC, Royal Melbourne - West
Morris/Sutherland: Royal Dornoch


Crystal Downs has the pedigree, but I would probably put it a level beneath my absolute favorites. The course enjoys a spectacular setting, some spectacular land forms, and some top-notch architecture. But, it is also a bit schizophrenic. Certainly, 18 holes that occupied nothing but tumbling land such as the stretch from 5-8 could get old eventually (variety is good), but the land for 12 and 16 seemed comparatively stale from the get go. It reminded me of Panmure in that respect - the first and last 4 holes there seem quite tame compared with the exciting middle stretch. Ebb and flow is often an asset, but I just didn't get the sense of sustained excellence that permeates every round I've played at (e.g.) Ballyneal.

That said, I'm knit picking. CD is definitely a special place, and it elicits that feeling in the loins as only such places do.

The clubhouse was pretty empty during my visit, but the course was well occupied. Thus, I didn't really have a chance to sample much of the membership. I definitely got a low-key vibe from the staff, in a good way, compared with the handful of other high-ranked classics I've visited.

[Mac Plumart]

CD is definitely a special place, and it elicits that feeling in the loins as only such places do.

Agreed!

Sheehy...play it.  Make a special trip.  It is one of "those" courses.

[JLahrman]

I still can't believe I had to pass on an invite to play CD this past summer while in Traverse City.  Just a beautiful setting for a course and wonderful example of a thinking man's course.

In my defense, I was on a family vacation and was on #5 tee at Kinglsey when I was asked if I could join my fellow playing partners for their afternoon round at CD.  I smartly figured that a 36 hole day halfway through our family vacation (when I was already generously granted the time for 18 at KC) would have sufficiently ticked off my better half.  Just hope it wasn't the last time I get an invite to go experience The Downs.

Sounds like the error was in the planning...you should have told the wife that it was an all-day affair, in the hopes that the afternoon CD round would have materialized. Then you would have looked great coming back early after only 18, while worst case (for her) you would have been gone all day like you originally told her.

I've got to think this through myself...My wife's parents live in Grand Rapids. I've only visited around the holidays for the last few years but I'm sure I'll be there in the summer sometime halfway soon...

[Greg Taylor]

Brian, the front nine is "all world" and the routing is just excellent.

However, all these issues aside nothing prepared me for the speed of the greens, especially #1 and #11 when above the hole.

There are a couple of holes on the back nine that are only very good and are in the same direction, but all the same it is a "must play" by anyone's measure, if I can make that kind of call.

[Bill_McBride]

Brian, the front nine is "all world" and the routing is just excellent.

However, all these issues aside nothing prepared me for the speed of the greens, especially #1 and #11 when above the hole.

There are a couple of holes on the back nine that are only very good and are in the same direction, but all the same it is a "must play" by anyone's measure, if I can make that kind of call.

15 and 16?

I loved 15 but just trying to think of two in a row that could be deemed "only very good!"

The first green is indeed a wild thing.  My buddy, Drinkin' Joe, missed the green to the right.  He had 5 putts on the green, not all consecutively played. 

[Greg Taylor]

^ Bill, yes 15 and 16, absolutely. And doesn't 17 follow broadly the same direction.

I think it's fair to say, or at least in my opinion, the back isn't quite up there with the front. You know the 10th is a bit of a sleeper too... well other than the drive in front of the huge window in the club house. And the 17th is a little too funky.

But look, this is semantics, it's top drawer golf - no question.

[Jud_T]

However, all these issues aside nothing prepared me for the speed of the greens, especially #1 and #11 when above the hole.

I actually made a putt from above the hole on #1, but I probably would have been in my pocket if it hadn't hit the center of the cup.  I don't know if it's even possible to make a putt from above the hole on 11.   

[Brett_Morrissy]

Brian can you ask the same question as you have in #40 on the Kingsley thread please?

[D_Malley]

can't help but notice some similarities a couple of holes have to holes in the philly area.

#7 looks very similar to #12 at Paxon Hollow.  although the green contours look alot different.

#17 looks like #8 at Glen Mills.

[Bob_Garvelink]

Thanks for the pictures and I can only imagine how fast those greens play   What are the chances of an average "joe" getting onto CD?