Terrain: How steep is too steep? [for a tee shot on a par 4]

[Joe Bausch]

To piggy-back off the other thread, what are some notable par 4's with a very uphill tee shot?  Do you know or can you reasonably estimate the climb?

Archies:  how steep is too steep?

[Tim Gavrich]

It's not terribly notable, but the 10th hole at the course I learned the game on, Hop Meadow CC in Simsbury, CT, rises about 80 feet from tee to green and twists to the left. Only 350 yards, with a scary back-to-front green. I've never played another hole like it.

[J_ Crisham]

The 12th? at LACC is pretty abruptly uphill off the tee- saw 2 drives skipped over the hill from our group - the member hit hybrid safely over and into the fairway.

[Cameron DeVries]

I can think of a few famous ones I've seen or played: 8 @ pebble, 18 @ riviera, 14 @ royal mel composite (4/5 par), 16 @ dornoch, 11 @ pasatiempo, 6 @ sherwood, 7 @ torrey north

some others in california:  9 at stanford, 18 & 4 @ balboa park, 13 @ montecito CC, 12 @ sandpiper, 1 @ bodega harbour

I love a good blind uphill tee shot.  The one time I played pebble beach my favorite moment of the day was hitting the tee shot on 8 over the aiming rock.

(as for a par four second shot, what immediately comes to mind is 11 @ maui lani.  the approach to the green is uphill more than 100 ft. from fairway to green!  the approach to #4 at chalk mountain in atascadero deserves a mention too, it's about 100 ft. uphill from drive landing area to the green.  nickname 'cardiac hill')

there are probably quite a few mountain courses with similar elevation changes uphill on tee shots and/or approaches.  What is that course in Austria, Seefeld?  From pictures it seems to have some sharply uphill shots.

[Alex Lagowitz]

The 10th (i think) at Royal Melbourne West is one of the greatest short 4s in the world.
Its very uphill

[Adam Lawrence]

I remember the first time I stood on the seventh tee of the Old course at Sunningdale. The hill in front of you is _incredibly_ steep, to the extent that I questioned whether I could hit driver. Get the ball over the hill and it's a spectacular hole, but it's scary on the tee

[Joe Bausch]

The 12th? at LACC is pretty abruptly uphill off the tee- saw 2 drives skipped over the hill from our group - the member hit hybrid safely over and into the fairway.

Any idea of the height Jack?

[Joe Bausch]

I can think of a few famous ones I've seen or played: 8 @ pebble, 18 @ riviera, 14 @ royal mel composite (4/5 par), 16 @ dornoch, 11 @ pasatiempo, 6 @ sherwood, 7 @ torrey north

some others in california:  9 at stanford, 18 & 4 @ balboa park, 13 @ montecito CC, 12 @ sandpiper, 1 @ bodega harbour

I love a good blind uphill tee shot.  The one time I played pebble beach my favorite moment of the day was hitting the tee shot on 8 over the aiming rock.

(as for a par four second shot, what immediately comes to mind is 11 @ maui lani.  the approach to the green is uphill more than 100 ft. from fairway to green!  the approach to #4 at chalk mountain in atascadero deserves a mention too, it's about 100 ft. uphill from drive landing area to the green.  nickname 'cardiac hill')

there are probably quite a few mountain courses with similar elevation changes uphill on tee shots and/or approaches.  What is that course in Austria, Seefeld?  From pictures it seems to have some sharply uphill shots.

Estimated heights on any of these Cameron?

[Alex Miller]

I can think of a few famous ones I've seen or played: 8 @ pebble, 18 @ riviera, 14 @ royal mel composite (4/5 par), 16 @ dornoch, 11 @ pasatiempo, 6 @ sherwood, 7 @ torrey north

some others in california:  9 at stanford, 18 & 4 @ balboa park, 13 @ montecito CC, 12 @ sandpiper, 1 @ bodega harbour

I love a good blind uphill tee shot.  The one time I played pebble beach my favorite moment of the day was hitting the tee shot on 8 over the aiming rock.

(as for a par four second shot, what immediately comes to mind is 11 @ maui lani.  the approach to the green is uphill more than 100 ft. from fairway to green!  the approach to #4 at chalk mountain in atascadero deserves a mention too, it's about 100 ft. uphill from drive landing area to the green.  nickname 'cardiac hill')

there are probably quite a few mountain courses with similar elevation changes uphill on tee shots and/or approaches.  What is that course in Austria, Seefeld?  From pictures it seems to have some sharply uphill shots.

Another slog in California, though with no architectural significance is the opener at De Bell. If I recall it's >120 feet uphill.

Palos Verdes CC also has a couple of extemely uphill par 4s: 6, 16 (a 450 yard par 5), and 17.

[Cameron DeVries]

Joe-   Riviera 18 is about 45 ft uphill tee to landing area, Pebble 8 is about 42 ft, 16 @ Dornoch is 20 ft., 7 @ Torrey North is 30 ft (discounting the elevated tee it is about 50 ft. uphill to the landing area)

6 @ sherwood rises more than 60 ft for the pros from the back tee to the 270-280 landing area, which is probably why so many guys were hitting long irons and hybrids into the green two weeks ago on a hole that is supposed to be a fairly short par 4.

1 @ bodega harbour is pretty steep.  It is a full 95-100 ft rise tee to fwy.  Meaning a normal 260y driver goes 220y.  12 @ sandpiper is 80+ ft.  13 @ montecito is 70+ ft.  5 @ balboa is 70+ ft.  11 @ pasatiempo is about 50 ft.  9 @ stanford is a 340-360 yd. par four about 35 ft uphill from tee to fairway but it seems like a lot more.

usually, the severe uphill tee shots I've played are reserved for shorter par fours so they're still manageable (eg 12 sandpiper, 9 stanford, etc)


Alex- I played DeBell several years ago in the Burbank City.  I had never seen the course prior to the first round and it was probably a good thing.  Some of those tee shots are unbelievably narrow and/or require a slice or a duck-hook to hit driver or even 3 wood on.  It may be 5600 on the card but with all the forced layups its essentially a 6000+ yard course.  That first hole is pretty ridiculous uphill, google earth has it as almost 170+ uphill tee to fwy!  although it's probably one of the better holes out there, you think?  The other holes at De Bell I liked were the 4th, 5th, 9th,10th, and 16th.  That being said, it's a pretty funky track (I played Palos Verdes once in a junior event and loved it; yeah I remember the 6th & 16/17 you mentioned, isn't 12 also pretty far uphill?? )

[Jackson C]

I can think of a few famous ones I've seen or played: 8 @ pebble, 18 @ riviera, 14 @ royal mel composite (4/5 par), 16 @ dornoch, 11 @ pasatiempo, 6 @ sherwood, 7 @ torrey north

some others in california:  9 at stanford, 18 & 4 @ balboa park, 13 @ montecito CC, 12 @ sandpiper, 1 @ bodega harbour

I love a good blind uphill tee shot.  The one time I played pebble beach my favorite moment of the day was hitting the tee shot on 8 over the aiming rock.

(as for a par four second shot, what immediately comes to mind is 11 @ maui lani.  the approach to the green is uphill more than 100 ft. from fairway to green!  the approach to #4 at chalk mountain in atascadero deserves a mention too, it's about 100 ft. uphill from drive landing area to the green.  nickname 'cardiac hill')

there are probably quite a few mountain courses with similar elevation changes uphill on tee shots and/or approaches.  What is that course in Austria, Seefeld?  From pictures it seems to have some sharply uphill shots.

Like to hear what you think of #11 @Pasa.  Famous hole and held out to be great.
Personally felt it was too uphill or too uphill combined with very difficult was not to my taste.

[J_ Crisham]

The 12th? at LACC is pretty abruptly uphill off the tee- saw 2 drives skipped over the hill from our group - the member hit hybrid safely over and into the fairway.

Any idea of the height Jack?

The height is only 30 feet I would guess-it just is so close to the teebox- which for us was the problem. I didn't think 18 at Riviera was an issue at all- its far enough out that any decently struck tee shot will carry up unto the fairway. If you don't bomb one you will have a hell of an approach in. I think I hit it about 260 and still had 200 plus left. The back tee makes it a big hole and you had better be able to hit a cut-twice.

[Cameron DeVries]

Jackson, I've played Pasatiempo 7-10 times and curiously 11 has never really stuck out for me as one of the best holes, though it probably is.  Back in its heyday (early 30s) with the big natural hills behind the green and open, un-treed hazard up the left it was probably more memorable.  Strategy wise I think it's a great hole and I really like it, the closer you play to the creek the better the angle & shorter the approach - and the green site is wonderful.  But with modern equipment any longer player (who hits it over 260 off the tee) absolutely has to lay-up or risk out of bounds so it's probably lost some of its spark for that reason alone.  The holes that have stood out to me over the 12 years I've played there are 2, 3, 4, 10, 14-16, & 18.  The strangest hole I've ever played at Pasatiempo no longer exists - back in 2005 at US Amateur Qualifying we played the old 80 yd crowned practice hole (behind & adjacent to the 13th green) as a real hole for two rounds because the 11th green/bunkers were being redone.  I made 4 both rounds which would have been good scores on 11, but weren't too good on that hole!

[Jim Sherma]

Too steep - playing at a place called White Tail north of Bethlehem, PA once. The third or fourth is a par 5 (might be a 4 as it's been a while since I played there) straight up hill. I hit a nice little draw that kicked hard left on the left side of the fairway and a couple of bounces later ended up on the cart path with curbing. The path was dead straight down the hill back towards the tee. As we watched it accelerate back towards us it finally ended up a good twenty yards behind where I had teed off from. Definitely the longest drive I ever hit in terms of total distance traveled.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It has been many years since I have played it but #15 at Palmetto GC is a pretty steep short par four.  I don't think it would be built today without some significant changes to the terrain.

[Sam Morrow]

The 17th at Sugar Creek Canyons, in Hinton, Oklahoma has a tee shot sharply uphill. I don't know how uphill it is but for a boy from the gulf coast it looks like playing up Pikes Peak. http://www.sugarcreekcanyon.com/golf/proto/sugarcreekcanyon/coursetour/back%20nine/scc17.html

[Alex Miller]

Joe-   Riviera 18 is about 45 ft uphill tee to landing area, Pebble 8 is about 42 ft, 16 @ Dornoch is 20 ft., 7 @ Torrey North is 30 ft (discounting the elevated tee it is about 50 ft. uphill to the landing area)

6 @ sherwood rises more than 60 ft for the pros from the back tee to the 270-280 landing area, which is probably why so many guys were hitting long irons and hybrids into the green two weeks ago on a hole that is supposed to be a fairly short par 4.

1 @ bodega harbour is pretty steep.  It is a full 95-100 ft rise tee to fwy.  Meaning a normal 260y driver goes 220y.  12 @ sandpiper is 80+ ft.  13 @ montecito is 70+ ft.  5 @ balboa is 70+ ft.  11 @ pasatiempo is about 50 ft.  9 @ stanford is a 340-360 yd. par four about 35 ft uphill from tee to fairway but it seems like a lot more.

usually, the severe uphill tee shots I've played are reserved for shorter par fours so they're still manageable (eg 12 sandpiper, 9 stanford, etc)


Alex- I played DeBell several years ago in the Burbank City.  I had never seen the course prior to the first round and it was probably a good thing.  Some of those tee shots are unbelievably narrow and/or require a slice or a duck-hook to hit driver or even 3 wood on.  It may be 5600 on the card but with all the forced layups its essentially a 6000+ yard course.  That first hole is pretty ridiculous uphill, google earth has it as almost 170+ uphill tee to fwy!  although it's probably one of the better holes out there, you think?  The other holes at De Bell I liked were the 4th, 5th, 9th,10th, and 16th.  That being said, it's a pretty funky track (I played Palos Verdes once in a junior event and loved it; yeah I remember the 6th & 16/17 you mentioned, isn't 12 also pretty far uphill?? )

I'd agree the 1st is one of the better holes at De Bell, but...how much are we really saying with that? haven't played it in many years though.

12 is also quite uphill at PV, thanks for reminding me. The most undrivable 260 yard par 4 there is.

[Bryan Izatt]

The 6th hole at my home course, Bond Head North, is notable for being a short par 4 that is extremely uphill, probably the most uphiill I've seen anywhere.  Designed by Hurdzan Fry, it is widely disliked by many who play it.

From the tips at 325 yards the green is 95 feet above the tee.  From the blue tees at 252 yards, the rise is 80 feet.  There is a wall of bunkers directly in front of the green.  They are only 200 yards to carry from the blue tee, but a 200 yard carry into a hill that high is more like 240 yards and you need to have a high ball flight.  Many a score has been wrecked in those bunkers by those who bite off more than they can chew.

From the tee:




From behind the green looking back down.

[Doug Siebert]

I don't think there is a such thing as too steep for a par 4, so long as there is a reasonable landing area for the tee shot where it won't roll way back down a hill.  I've seen some short par 4s with such steep slopes that a drive will roll back 70 or 80 yards if you don't get it to the top of a slope, that's really not fair for shorter hitters.  It either needs a bit of terracing or to have a fairway that doesn't stimp so high.

[Sean_A]

I don't think there is a such thing as too steep for a par 4, so long as there is a reasonable landing area for the tee shot where it won't roll way back down a hill.  I've seen some short par 4s with such steep slopes that a drive will roll back 70 or 80 yards if you don't get it to the top of a slope, that's really not fair for shorter hitters.  It either needs a bit of terracing or to have a fairway that doesn't stimp so high.

You never played Painswick's first!  And this pic makes the hole look flat.  Easily one of the worst opening holes I have ever experienced.


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

The 11th at Pasatiempo is 90 feet uphill from tee to green ... the most I've ever seen on a hole which somebody has called "great".  I think the 9th hole there is up a similar amount, but it's a par-5.

I used that knowledge when doing the routing for Stone Eagle.  There are several par-4's at Stone Eagle that rise 70+ feet ... the 2nd, 5th, 10th, and 14th.  I'd guess that most golfers underestimate these climbs because they are looking at the big mountain behind the green instead of a skyline.

My favorite uphill tee shot (actually up and over) is the 4th at Royal Melbourne West ... I like it so much I built one very similar for the 3rd hole at Stonewall (North).  I believe it's a 40-foot rise that you have to get over, with bunkers at the top of it.

[Jud_T]

Tom,

How much uphill is the approach at Old Mac #7?  


P.S. Oops, sorry, wrong thread....

[Matthew Petersen]

I don't know how many feet it comes to, but the 6th at the Ridge in Colorado is surely one of the most steeply uphill holes I have played.

http://www.playtheridge.com/courses.php?CourseID=84d180b78f4ad3c1134836e8c7e1d7c1&HoleNumber=6

It's basically a 300 yd hole that's a mid iron to a mostly blind fairway, followed by a wedge to a blind green.

[Doug Siebert]

Anyone know how high the rise is for the tee shot on Muirfield's 11th?  It's total doesn't compare to many other holes, but it is fairly steep and unlike most holes with a steep rise you have zero visibility to your landing area.

[Mike Viscusi]

The first that came to mind in the Philly Area is Jeffersonville's 14th (Ross):
http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Jeffersonville/pages/page_99.html?

I have no idea how much it rises...30-40 feet maybe?  I love the tee shot.