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Sean_A

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The Never Ending Quest
« on: December 11, 2012, 01:03:30 PM »
I am not trying to pick on Diddel, the super at Wichita or the members of Wichita.  I am merely using the photos to illustrate some points and hopefully learn something about grass lines. 

I have asked many times why so many American courses squeeze fairways when nearing greens.  Below is a decent example of the fairway narrowing as near the green, thus reducing short grass chipping areas and to a minor degree holding up balls from finding bunkers. 


Here is another example.


I can understand grassing lines on the inside of bunkers when archies build mounding for bunkers - its a sort of compromise.  Otherwise, the grass line would have to go wide of the entire mounding complex unless a line was made down the middle of a mound(s) - probably the worst solution.  Sure, I would prefer the grass lines to always go outside of bunkers, but...


Anyway, why did this style of grass lines ever come about? 
Do supers/club members give this much thought? 
Have supers/archies experimented with ways to build bunkers which are easier to cut around and keep the cut lines outside the bunkers?
Are there supers/archies there trying to push grass lines out.  More of a style of continuing the fairway width through the green complex. 

Its just that I see photo tour after tour showing the same cut lines, almost as if its part of a school of learning supers go through.  Do supers learn to cut grass this way?

Ciao
 

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2012, 01:18:46 PM »
Sean, It's my belief that this 'standard maintenance presentation', probably came about from the center of the world, New York. Specifically a course like Winged Foot, probably set the trend. People just copied it, figuring the good folks at WF knew what they were doing.

I agree with you that it's nonsensical from a playability stand point. I've heard it justified for aesthetic reasons by people who like that verdant textured look. 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2012, 02:25:13 PM »
I have a theory based on nothing but conjecture...

I am guessing this type of presentation looks harder but actually plays easier.  Balls catch in rough instead of bunkers...stay greenside instead of bouncing away...etc.  Members wanted the perception of a hard course, but once they played it realized it was easier.

Michael Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2012, 03:26:56 PM »
I would tend to agree with the comment on playability.  As I mentioned on the Wichita thread, I play at a Diddel course in Ohio (not that it makes a difference though as it concerns this thread.)  I've never seen original drawings of our course to know if our current mowing patterns match up with the plan, but there is generally a good deal of space between fairway and our greenside bunkers - at least 2-3 steps in almost all cases.  By no means do we have what would constitute a heavily bunkered golf course, but I just looked back at my scorecards from this year and saw that I hit exactly six bunker shots over 18 full rounds all year.  I think that a combination of fairways that are typically on the soft side and plenty of thick bluegrass rough that separates the bunkers from the fairways and the greens has left many of our bunkers a non-factor.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2012, 03:48:10 PM »
Sean,

Honestly, the first picture looks like a photoshop deal rather than a real picture.
Tim Weiman

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2012, 03:53:20 PM »
Sean,

Honestly, the first picture looks like a photoshop deal rather than a real picture.

Tim,

?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2012, 09:12:47 AM »
Sean:

I asked my friend Tom Mead this question 25 years ago when we were starting High Pointe ... whether that "collar" look of the fairway necking down is something they taught in superintendent school.  He said he had never really thought about how it smothered the bounce of wayward approach shots, he just did it because everyone else did.  So at High Pointe we didn't.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2012, 10:16:27 AM »
Sean, I immediately thought of the many aerials of British Courses posted by Mark Rowlinson a few weeks back.  One example:



I find the photographs very appealing.  It's almost as though the green is set within a playing field defined by the fairway rather than a a green that dots the 'i'.

Growing up, the little nine-holer I played with tiny pushed up greens had each fairway extended around the green with a couple of cuts from the gang-mowers.  I can help but wonder if the pinched approach you mentioned evolved from turning around the tractor pulling the gang-mowers at the front of the green,  particularly where the green was pushed up with flanking front bunkers.

Bogey
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 10:18:50 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2012, 11:02:28 AM »
I suspect there is no other better reason than the one Tom offers, supers don't give it much thought or they think the pinched look is attractive.  My attention was drawn back to Joe's profile of Scranton (which looks very, very good).  Many of the mow lines were very close to what I am getting at.  The club strangely doesn't go whole hog, but at least they are well on the way.  Look at the following pix to see the difference.


[/img]http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/scranton/4c.jpg[/img]


Why isn't this sort of presentation seen more often?  Is it merely a lack of exposure by supers to this sort of thing?

Ciao
 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Don_Mahaffey

Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2012, 11:18:32 AM »
Sean:

 ... whether that "collar" look of the fairway necking down is something they taught in superintendent school....
:D
My take. It is the look golfers associate with high end. More heights of cut, more definition, more expensive, more...
I've said for years that reducing rough and letting wayward shots roll into real trouble would make courses more difficult for the bombers, but good players think rough is the answer. Always nice to see the senior ladies playing out of 3 inch grass.  >:(


Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2012, 08:32:23 PM »
Maybe a legacy of the RTJ templates that included bunkers at 5 and 7 (as on a clock).

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2012, 09:22:30 PM »
I often see holes that narrow the fairway down to less than 10 yards in front of the green - whether or not there are bunkers on either side.  Maybe the foreshortened perspective was used in the past to try to fool players into thinking it is longer than it really is?  Maybe to make it harder, or alternatively perhaps to make it easier (so average players underclub less)

I don't mind it on a driveable par 4 or on a par 5 as I believe it serves a useful purpose for longer hitters to require more accurate shots to put the ball on the green, but it is dumb for all levels of player on other holes - but especially on par 3s.  My dad turns 79 two months from yesterday, and at the rate he's losing distance will hit drives for negative yardage by the time he's 90, so I notice how these things affect shorter hitters a lot more than I would have in the past.  There's no reason to discourage someone from being able to bounce the ball onto the green on a 140 yard par 3 by making them hit it with 3x more accuracy than is required of players landing the ball on the green.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2012, 10:29:42 PM »
I suspect there is no other better reason than the one Tom offers, supers don't give it much thought or they think the pinched look is attractive.  My attention was drawn back to Joe's profile of Scranton (which looks very, very good).  Many of the mow lines were very close to what I am getting at.  The club strangely doesn't go whole hog, but at least they are well on the way.  Look at the following pix to see the difference.

Why isn't this sort of presentation seen more often?  Is it merely a lack of exposure by supers to this sort of thing?

Ciao
 

Sean,

You can thank the likes of Ian Andrew for helping restore the grassing lines you desire.

Ian was involved in the Scranton renovation (from his website). I'm not sure if he "opened the eyes" of the Super or if the Super was leaning that way and had a partner in Ian. Either way, the results look wonderful, especially combined with those Travis greens.  Ian has been doing restoration work at several other Travis courses in my area, with similar positive results.

Park Country Club (Alison) underwent a similar conversion from "rings of rough" to short grass as a hazard in the last few years, again under Ian's guidance.  So far, the trend seems to be mainly on the Private side here in Western NY.  I'm hoping word of these improvements spreads to more of the Public supers soon.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2012, 04:46:05 AM »
I suspect there is no other better reason than the one Tom offers, supers don't give it much thought or they think the pinched look is attractive.  My attention was drawn back to Joe's profile of Scranton (which looks very, very good).  Many of the mow lines were very close to what I am getting at.  The club strangely doesn't go whole hog, but at least they are well on the way.  Look at the following pix to see the difference.

Why isn't this sort of presentation seen more often?  Is it merely a lack of exposure by supers to this sort of thing?

Ciao
 

Sean,

You can thank the likes of Ian Andrew for helping restore the grassing lines you desire.

Ian was involved in the Scranton renovation (from his website). I'm not sure if he "opened the eyes" of the Super or if the Super was leaning that way and had a partner in Ian. Either way, the results look wonderful, especially combined with those Travis greens.  Ian has been doing restoration work at several other Travis courses in my area, with similar positive results.

Park Country Club (Alison) underwent a similar conversion from "rings of rough" to short grass as a hazard in the last few years, again under Ian's guidance.  So far, the trend seems to be mainly on the Private side here in Western NY.  I'm hoping word of these improvements spreads to more of the Public supers soon.



Kevin

That is interesting to find out about Ian.  I find the Scranton example very appealing.  Do you have photos of the work on other nearby courses?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2012, 11:41:21 AM »
Ian was involved in the Scranton renovation (from his website). I'm not sure if he "opened the eyes" of the Super or if the Super was leaning that way and had a partner in Ian. Either way, the results look wonderful, especially combined with those Travis greens.  Ian has been doing restoration work at several other Travis courses in my area, with similar positive results.

I would like to keep things straight on Country Club of Scranton.
(and Greg did not need me to open his eyes)

Yes Greg Armstrong (super before Greg Boring) and I widened out all the fairways, extended short grass around all the greens and recaptured the original greens. There were areas we did not extend short grass because of the severity of mounds like the back of the 3rd, right of 7th or the back of the 10th holes.

I ended up parting ways over the bunkers, I wanted to restore them to the aerial, they wanted to renovate. I did not want to build modern style bunkers. It was a very comfortable parting of the ways with no hard feelings. They hired Fazio and Co.

Greg Boring (great guy BTW) and Tom Marzolf extended many of those areas much further and into areas we did not touch by doing some grading work to soften mounds. Sean's first image shows short behind the green, there were sharp slopes removed to make that happen. I’m just not fond or re-grading original shapes and forms. I prefer to grass around them and keep them.

Greg and Tom get credit for the extensive nature of those grassing lines. They made the changes they needed to make to push them out as far as they did.  
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 11:53:49 AM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2012, 11:48:10 AM »
I've edited my Scranton photo tour to make all pictures 'clickable', which I think is a nice improvement as you can now get a bigger picture view if so desired.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53736.0.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Never Ending Quest
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2012, 12:05:44 PM »
Ian,

Sorry - didn't mean to cause any confusion re:Scranton.

When I said Sean could thank "the likes of" you, I meant in a general sense.  My experience is you are an architect who prefers to restore the classic grassing lines.  I wasn't sure of your exact role at Scranton, but was blown away by the restoration work at Park CC.

Do you happen to have any before & after pictures of the grassing lines at Park - I only have the afters (especially #2, 15 or 18)?  Again, not trying to give you "sole" credit on the grassing lines there (as Scott Dodson has been a great partner), but your general emphasis on these features is appreciated.