Should St. Andrews be taken out of the rota?

[Joel_Stewart]

All this talk about the changes to St. Andrews and the solution could be very easy.  Retire the course from the Open rota and preserve the course as it is.

Five other courses have hosted the Open and are now no longer used. 

Furthermore, if an opening existed, it would allow another course to enter the rotation.  The USGA has expanded the number of courses significantly yet the R&A has not.   

Any thoughts?

[Bill_McBride]

Not that I have a say, but.....

Over my dead body!

Anyone who hasn't been to an Open Championship in St Andrews should, it's a special event with the entire town involved.  Everybody plays the same course, so the R&A should just let them play.   Rory's rounds of 63-80 should show that old girl still has teeth to spare. 

[Jeb Bearer]

The course doesn't have to be removed from the rota to be preserved. All you have to do is:

1) Keep the greens at normal, year round speed if there really aren't enough pin positions
2) Forget about par. Par is an arbitrary number; it means nothing. If the winner shoots -20 (which, if there is wind, won't happen) so what? The player that played the best won, aka the tournament was successful.

[Terry Lavin]

All this talk about the changes to St. Andrews and the solution could be very easy.  Retire the course from the Open rota and preserve the course as it is.

Five other courses have hosted the Open and are now no longer used. 

Furthermore, if an opening existed, it would allow another course to enter the rotation.  The USGA has expanded the number of courses significantly yet the R&A has not.   

Any thoughts?

Enuf. TOC will ALWAYS be in the rota.   Also, the USGA does not have a rota.

[RJ_Daley]

Just brain storming, not saying this is what should or shouldn't be done.  

But, if they take it our of the rota of championship rota courses because it has been tweaked and it is sacrilege to the tweaking this course from historical concepts, then the powers that be (R&A) should make sure that the 'old grey toon' should not take an economic hit.  Thus, hold Opens at the other local course, Kingsbarns, and tweak away every year if you must to keep it current to technology, and leave the home of golf an historical living site that does not give way to the curse of technology distance issues.  

Keeping the open week in the local area at another course should still keep the economic impact in the area with hotel and food economy, intact.

But one way- I think, to boost the local impact of that week or two time frame is to still use TOC as an ancillary or concurrent new site of a new tradition of pure old fashion golf competition by having a series of flighted 2 day tournaments at TOC concurrent with the Open.  Anotherwords, on previous Sat-Sun; Mon-Tues; Wed-Thur; have two day flighted amateur opens at TOC where some process allows amateurs to enter and have a competition for a silver medal in their handicapped flights.  People would flock to enter and spectate, and all the more lodging and hospitality industry commerce would ensue.  Honor TOC with the ideals of the cradle of the game whereby amateurs are not really in need of TOC requirng more tweaking due to distance needs to match top pros to new technology, and bring back the spirit of the game as a world-wide event of prestige, and yet still have the actual professional Open in the region at a modern tweakable course.  

Make the Links Trust run TOC as it should be, as presented in a more historical authentic form for amateurs to play and compete, closer to the soul of golf, and leave her alone except for proper maintenance and restoration of anything crumbling.  Have it both ways.

[mike_beene]

I wish they would go every three years. The flip side of this is when will they quit making us play the course at 6300 yards?

[Mark Chaplin]

Joel - £75m economic benefit to Fife every five years, the R&A based in Fife. Take away the romance of TOC and you still have a compelling reason why the Open will be held there. RJ is Kingsbarns a links course? Does the Open need to go to a venue made from farmland?

The south east is another question, if and it's a big IF the women issue became such that RStG ducked out of the rota, then the R&A would still high desire south east venue. I think almost certainly a local to RStG would go back into the rota.

[Ulrich Mayring]

And what a message that would send to its female members

Ulrich

[Mark Chaplin]

My feeling is two clubs would duck out of hosting the Open rather than be forced to accept lady members, I'm not sure on the third and I'm certain the R&A will have lady members by 2015.

[Jud_T]

On today's episode of 'Obvious Signs of Too Much Inbreeding' ('What Really Goes On at British Boys Schools' for the foreign market):

At number one with a bullet:  You'd rather make ad hoc changes to your most historic of golf courses, and only consult one architect who happens to be in your pocket in the process, than admit female members.  

Of course they should dump the Open and leave the course alone.  Have it every year at Trump International from the 10,000 yard markers.  But that would break with tradition...Oh, wait a minute.....

[Ivan Morris]

Having The Open at TOC every five years is just about right and it should remain that way. Make sure all windows are wide open that week to allow the wind to blow in! Nae wind, nae gawf. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Why not just hold it on the New? Older than many courses in the world. Harder and far more conventional / defined than TOC. They want harder and orthodox for the Open, right? They could use some of TOC's and Jubilee's tees to make the course 8,500 yards long.

[Ronald Montesano]

Responses:

" I'm certain the R&A will have last members by 2015."  Mark, does "last" mean "lost" here?

" People would flock to enter and spectate, and all the more lodging and hospitality industry commerce would ensue." RJ, I think that you're wrong. Who would want to watch an event that is, in essence, an invitational and not a championship of any ruling body? People don't flock to see the Walker nor Curtis Cup competitions, nor the British nor US Amateur championships. Would they do so for an event that is a shill, invented to appease a microscopic population? As far as the lodging and hospitality industry, I doubt that they have any trouble selling out during Open week, given the corporate influence (absent for any other events)

"Also, the USGA does not have a rota." Terry, no publicized rota exists for the USGA, but somehow a number of courses make their way into the conversation each decade. To the USGA's credit/wallet, new sites do make entry to accompany the tried and true venues.

"Why not just hold it on the New?" Mark, worth a shot. I suspect that few television spectators know the holes at the Old Course, so I doubt they sit around the television and say "I cannot wait until the leaders get to Eden or Bobby Jones" nor "Let's see if the testicles claim another victim from the lead group this year." It happens at Augusta National becasue the US Masters is contested there every year, so people know terms like "Amen Corner" albeit not much about holes like 14, 17 and 7. If New is more flexible than Old, especially with adjacent courses offering options, it's worth a shot.

[Rich Goodale]

Why not just hold it on the New? Older than many courses in the world. Harder and far more conventional / defined than TOC. They want harder and orthodox for the Open, right? They could use some of TOC's and Jubilee's tees to make the course 8,500 yards long.

Why not hold it on the Ladies Putting Green?  Stimp that baby at 15 and watch all the flat bellies cry!

[jeffwarne]

No
The Old is fine
The actual scores haven't been that low because they haven'
t gone the USGA copout route and changed pars.
(For those who think the winning score matters)
Great list of champions
Second place wasnt't very low last time.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Why not just hold it on the New? Older than many courses in the world. Harder and far more conventional / defined than TOC. They want harder and orthodox for the Open, right? They could use some of TOC's and Jubilee's tees to make the course 8,500 yards long.

Why not hold it on the Ladies Putting Green?  Stimp that baby at 15 and watch all the flat bellies cry!

Hey, this could be the answer to The Masters' Weds par 3 contest. Would they pin TOC's Open 2T?

[Sean_A]

At number one with a bullet:  You'd rather make ad hoc changes to your most historic of golf courses, and only consult one architect who happens to be in your pocket in the process, than admit female members.  

You can do better than this straw argument - I am sure of it.  I can see it now.  Members of Sandwich outraged by course changes made to appease Dawson after allowing women as members!  The shame of the double cross would be too much for any respectable salmon colour trouzer wearin' Oxbridge man to bear.  Then again, Sandwich has been changed so often to accommodate the flat bellies that one or two additional changes are neither here nor there.

I do wonder if its true that Sandwich and Muirfield would drop the Open if made to choose between women and the Claret Jug.  I don't have a clue  why it would matter if the R&A decided not to host the Open - The Links Trust could likely do the job.    

Ciao  

[Ulrich Mayring]

Who "owns" the Open Championship anyway?

Ulrich

[Jon Wiggett]

Who "owns" the Open Championship anyway?

Ulrich

The right to run it is the R&A's.

Jon

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - the Open at Princes by 2025......you heard it here first!

[Sean_A]

Sean - the Open at Princes by 2025......you heard it here first!

Chappers

If it should come to pass that Sandwich no longer hosts the Open, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Princes was chosen over Deal. 

Jon - remember, the R&A is split.  So the clubs side of things, which is where the women issue rests, is not involved with hosting The Open. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean, I believe its still called the R&A though!!!

Jon

[Ulrich Mayring]

There are in fact two R&As, one golf club and one limited company, which organises the Open and administers the rules. I believe none of them have women in any meaningful capacity.

Ulrich

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - Deal has the course but doesn't have the space for the Open. Princes has the space but not the course, that is fairly easy to change though. If you look at google maps a bridge from the main road north of Princes coming over the estuary into the back of Princes opens up access and removes the town and the toll road from the equation.

[Sean_A]

Chappers

We might disagree on the course issue. While not as characterful as Deal, Princes can made into all the big boys can handle in terms of challenge.  Princes also has more space for visitors.  Unless there is a movement by the R&A to become wistful about the past and accept limited numbers of patrons, I find it hard to believe Deal is a better option over Princes.  Of course, this presupposes Sandwich throws in the towel if challenged about de wimenz. 

There is also the option of the R&A not using a southeast venue until Sandwich comes round.  Porthcawl is likely a better choice than Deal in terms of infrastructure, beds and access - that is if the R&A can't stomach Princes pay & play nature. Of course, there is always the possibility of Trump convincing the R&A that his course should be included - don't laugh monkey boy - Trump has a way of getting things done.  While I admit that I strongly suspect the R&A want a southeast club in the rota, what that probably means is the R&A want Sandwich in the rota.  Does Deal or Princes have a sufficient power base in the R&A to convince them that the southeast is a must for the rota regardless of which clubs hosts?   

Ciao     

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