If you're going to blame anyone,

[Andy Stamm]

In 2006 at Hoylake Tiger's driving may have been erratic (but since he only hit one driver...), but his iron play (particularly long iron play) was phenomenal. His putting was, as ever, phenomenal. He and Jack were both miles better than "the field" from 250-150 out and could and did use the freedom that confidence in their long irons gave them off the tee. They of course also used their length to their advantage, too.

In his post-game interview at St Andrews in '78, Jack said he thought that that was the best that he'd ever played in a tournament (which surprised me given that it was close and he'd won an awful lot). In the televised segment, he didn't really miss a shot (I don't think he meant to play that far left on 14, but left was the conservative place to play and further left the place to miss. I gave the shot by shot, which I think is clearly very conservative golf. And he was hitting fantastic shots. And he said that was a good as he can play. So for me that's evidence that even when he was "on," he played very conservatively, which is my point. Of course he also thought that was appropriate for the course, that goes without saying.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

I don't think it was conservative, I think it was defensive, he didn't want to risk/challenge the features/bunkers, Daly on the other hand ignored them because he could fly the same  features Jack had to consider as in play obstacles.

I forget the exact name of the tournament, but Tiger had driven it into a right side fairway bunker adjacent to a lake/pond.
Tiger was 210+ to the hole which was tucked in the back. Right corner of a narrow green right up against the water.
He hit one of the greatest shots I ever saw, a 6-iron right at the flag.  Hardly the mark of a conservative golfer.

[Pat Burke]

Andy,

I don't think it was conservative, I think it was defensive, he didn't want to risk/challenge the features/bunkers, Daly on the other hand ignored them because he could fly the same  features Jack had to consider as in play obstacles.

I forget the exact name of the tournament, but Tiger had driven it into a right side fairway bunker adjacent to a lake/pond.
Tiger was 210+ to the hole which was tucked in the back. Right corner of a narrow green right up against the water.
He hit one of the greatest shots I ever saw, a 6-iron right at the flag.  Hardly the mark of a conservative golfer.

Canadian Open  Glen Abby     Freaking unreal shot

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I'll never forget that shot and the aerial replays of it.

I couldn't think of anyone else who would even attempt it

[Andy Stamm]

You forget to mention that that was the last hole and that his partner was 20' for eagle and a shot behind. So Tiger pretty much thinks he needs a birdie to be sure, so circumstances probably influenced him a great deal.

To be sure, it was still a very aggressive shot. That was Woods in 2000, who was as good as any player ever. No other player would have tried it because no one was anywhere nearly as good with a long iron as Woods at the time. It was surely less aggressive of a play for him then for me or even Ernie, who was pretty good also pretty good then.

I never said that he was always conservative or never aggressive. Off the top of my head, in 2005 at Harding Park there were 2 drivable par 4s. Other players (including Daly and Sergio) went for them (particularly 16) when Tiger didn't, he chose to play iron, then wedge. Maybe Daly hit driver higher/further than Tiger (although I doubt it), but the others surely didn't. So for Tiger trying to drive 16 was a less aggressive play than for Sergio, yet Sergio tried it and Tiger didn't. That's conservative.

At Pebble in 2000, he took a pretty conservative approach with a lot of irons from the tee (the stinger was itself a very conservative shot) and crushed the field. He also mixed in some aggressive shots.

Last night I watched a four ball match of Palmer/Player vs Nicklaus/Rodgers at LACC in 1963. On the 6th a slight dogleg right, the (long) players could try to drive the green. Player plays left with no chance to drive the green. Rodgers plays to the green, not getting there, but leaving himself a simple pitch. Palmer hits a great shot just short of the green. Nicklaus who was much longer than Rodgers and easily 10 yards longer than Palmer (and straighter) is the only player who probably has a chance of driving the green. He plays 3 wood left. He misses the green with an awkward 50 yard pitch and his team's 4 loses to Arnie's birdie. In a four ball match, for 1963 Nicklaus that was a very conservative play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

If it was the Canadian Open how could he have a partner ?  ?  ?

[Jud_T]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwOMPTVU0S4

[Patrick_Mucci]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwOMPTVU0S4

Jud,

Thanks.

I think the commentary confirms everything I've said about that shot.

213 yards from a sidehill lie in a bunker, all carry over water to a narrow green with an impossible hole location close to the water.

Simply remarkable, a shot for he ages.

[Andy Stamm]

Andy,

If it was the Canadian Open how could he have a partner ?  ?  ?

by "partner" I meant "stroke play competitor in his group." It was a poor choice of words, but I think the meaning was clear, particularly in the context of the Canadian Open. The shot was definitely one for the ages.

Do you think Tiger's approach to Pebble in 2000 was conservative? His play of iron off of 18 tee on Sunday with a 15 (!!!) shot lead (having hit driver the rest of the week, and presumably not low on amo)? His stated goal on Sunday of playing conservatively so as not to make a bogey, despite have played to 12 under (or so) the first 3 days?

You're citing a specific example. I've already stated that Tiger sometimes plays very aggressive shots. Phil on the other hand, almost always goes for the aggressive shot, unless the alternative is crazy (and even then sometimes!) But, they have very different approaches to playing the game, and while I'd say that Phil is very aggressive, Tiger plays much more conservatively.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

If it was the Canadian Open how could he have a partner ?  ?  ?

by "partner" I meant "stroke play competitor in his group." It was a poor choice of words, but I think the meaning was clear, particularly in the context of the Canadian Open. The shot was definitely one for the ages.

You said that his partner was 20' from the hole, putting for eagle, implying that Tiger's score didn't matter since his partner already had birdie or eagle secured.

Do you think Tiger's approach to Pebble in 2000 was conservative? His play of iron off of 18 tee on Sunday with a 15 (!!!) shot lead (having hit driver the rest of the week, and presumably not low on amo)? His stated goal on Sunday of playing conservatively so as not to make a bogey, despite have played to 12 under (or so) the first 3 days?

Club selection isn't always confined to conservative versus aggressive play.
I don't recall the condition of the fairways/rough nor the direction of the wind, but, if you've played # 18 at Pebble Beach, you know how they can influence club selection.  Why go Out-of-Bounds and out of the record books ?

You're citing a specific example. I've already stated that Tiger sometimes plays very aggressive shots. Phil on the other hand, almost always goes for the aggressive shot, unless the alternative is crazy (and even then sometimes!) But, they have very different approaches to playing the game, and while I'd say that Phil is very aggressive, Tiger plays much more conservatively.

Andy,

I think you could say that Phil's more prone to play with reckless abandon, but that's borne of confidence, especially confidence in his incredible short game.  Just because someone isn't as consistently aggressive as Mickelson doesn't mean that they play conservatively.

Rarely do I see Tiger lay up on par 5's leaving him a nice lie for his third shot.
He usually pulls out all stops and goes for it.
Nobody that swings as hard as Tiger swings, is playing conservatively.
When you fall off your feet while swinging, that's not conservative play, whether it's driver or any other club.

I also think that there's a tactical difference between "conservative" play and "percentage" play where one removes trouble from the equation.
It may be a fine line and it may be situational/mood driven, but, I never thought of Tiger as being a "conservative" golfer.
In general, I think he attacks the course.
For someone who hits his 2-iron 280 yards, he hits alot of drivers and fairway woods off the tee and in many cases, seems to swing with wild abandon, which is hardly the trademark of conservative play.

I might consider others conservative golfers, but, not Tiger Woods.
 

[Andy Stamm]

I was suggesting that since his opponent was 20' for eagle, Tiger had to think birdie, which if he liked the shot, would suggest going for it. If opponent has that putt for 4 and par wins for Tiger, I'd bet that Tiger lays up. I think the situation influenced his shot selection.

That's fair enough, we just see it differently. But when Tiger takes a more conservative approach than his competitors given that he was superior to them in nearly every category, that's conservative golf. His putting and short game were fantastic, too, so if that gives Mickleson the confidence to be aggressive, it would give it to Tiger, too. He was (justifiably) plenty confident in his short game.

Pebble was playing hard and fast with long rough, but I don't think there was much wind. It's funny you mention the recordbook. About the only record that Tiger didn't break was lowest score, at 272 he only tied it. He was on 18 with birdie to break the record (and he knew it). He had a huge margin so going for the record wouldn't cost the trophy. And with a driver he could have gotten home. Everybody thought he'd go for the record. He hit iron because he said his personal goal of the day of not making any bogeys was more important than the record. I'm pretty sure he thought that driver would over the long run yield the lowest score on the hole, i.e. it was the best play for him if his goal was to get in in the fewest strokes. But, his goal wasn't that, it was not to make bogey. And he felt like playing iron was the highest percentage play for making par or better even if that meant on average a higher score. That's the definition of conservative to me. But as a one off, I see it as more of a curio than anything more.

I do think your ideas on swing speed and balance having any bearing on whether shot selection or strategy are conservative or not are missplaced.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was suggesting that since his opponent was 20' for eagle, Tiger had to think birdie, which if he liked the shot, would suggest going for it.

If I recall correctly, Tiger had a one shot lead over Waite going into 18 and Waite has a 20 footer for eagle.
If he makes it, not beyond the realm, and Tiger Birdies... playoff.
If Tiger hits his bunker shot heavy or right, Waite 2 putts and wins.

The announcer said, "Gutsy" play.
Then, "oh, oh, it's going right" immediately after he hit it.

The likelihood of Waite 2 putting for birdie was greater.
A conservative shot would have been playing out to the left, and up and downing it for a birdie to win by one.

But, he took the most incredibly aggressive play possible.
What some call the greatest shot they ever saw

If opponent has that putt for 4 and par wins for Tiger, I'd bet that Tiger lays up. I think the situation influenced his shot selection.
But, it's a par 5 and his opponent is 20 feet in two and only one behind.
Creating a situation where his opponent two putts for bogey is unrealistic.

That's fair enough, we just see it differently.

But when Tiger takes a more conservative approach than his competitors given that he was superior to them in nearly every category, that's conservative golf.

I never noticed him doing that very often.
You have to remember, that taking a club less than driver, when you hit your 2-iron 280 and the average PGA Pro was driving it 270, as he indicated in 1996, is not playing conservatively, especially when there's trouble at 310-340.

His putting and short game were fantastic, too, so if that gives Mickleson the confidence to be aggressive, it would give it to Tiger, too. He was (justifiably) plenty confident in his short game.

Yes, but, you can't claim that because Tiger isn't as reckless as Mickelson, that he's conservative in his play.

Pebble was playing hard and fast with long rough, but I don't think there was much wind. It's funny you mention the recordbook. About the only record that Tiger didn't break was lowest score, at 272 he only tied it. He was on 18 with birdie to break the record (and he knew it). He had a huge margin so going for the record wouldn't cost the trophy. And with a driver he could have gotten home.

He also could have gone out of bounds or in the hazard and thereby kissed birdie goodbye.
With his superior short game, not reaching the green in two, wouldn't remove birdie from the equation.
And, as a 543 yard dogleg par 5, with no wind, a 2-iron off the tee still allows him to get home in two.

Everybody thought he'd go for the record. He hit iron because he said his personal goal of the day of not making any bogeys was more important than the record. I'm pretty sure he thought that driver would over the long run yield the lowest score on the hole,

And, the highest !

 i.e. it was the best play for him if his goal was to get in in the fewest strokes.

But, his goal wasn't that, it was not to make bogey. And he felt like playing iron was the highest percentage play for making par or better even if that meant on average a higher score.

If that was his goal, than not using driver took the OB and Ocean out of play.
It wasn't about the best score, it was about the worst score and driver brings the OB immediately in play, especially on a dogleg left with the Ocean on the left and OB right.

That's the definition of conservative to me. But as a one off, I see it as more of a curio than anything more.

And I see it as more situational, physically and mentally.

I do think your ideas on swing speed and balance having any bearing on whether shot selection or strategy are conservative or not are missplaced.

Just so I can gain some context on the issue, what's your handicap ?

[JESII]

Pat,

To be clear, Tiger had a 15 stroke lead on 18 at Pebble. If he'd made a 19 on the hole he still would have won so the risk of hitting a ball out of bounds with a driver carried a little less weight than usual. His iron off the tee was to protect, it was not an effort at breaking the scoring record.

As to the shot at the Canadian Open, there is virtually no chance he aimed that far right. He had 60 feet of green left of the pin that virtually guarantees a victory. Still maybe the greatest shot ever and noone will get him to admit where he was aiming but we are allowed to use our brains...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

To be clear, Tiger had a 15 stroke lead on 18 at Pebble. If he'd made a 19 on the hole he still would have won so the risk of hitting a ball out of bounds with a driver carried a little less weight than usual. His iron off the tee was to protect, it was not an effort at breaking the scoring record.

Protect what ?

You just told me he had a 15 stroke lead.

If his goal was to play a round without a bogey than an iron off the tee makes sense because it eliminate OB right.

As to the shot at the Canadian Open, there is virtually no chance he aimed that far right. He had 60 feet of green left of the pin that virtually guarantees a victory. Still maybe the greatest shot ever and noone will get him to admit where he was aiming but we are allowed to use our brains...

So, it's your position, that Tiger, seen aiming directly at the flag from the camera behind him, pushed the ball 20 yards right of his intended line, and, that his club selection, which was to a target area 20 yards left of the hole, just happened to be perfect for the hole location 20 yards to the right of his intended line ?

In addition, if he pars the hole, he either loses or at best, ties for the tournament.

 I thought you said that you were allowed to use your brain ?.

To help you answer these questions, here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwOMPTVU0S4

[JESII]

Pat,

Freeze that video at the 1:38 mark. His entire body is lined up 50 feet left of the pin. His body reaction immediately after impact is that of a pushed shot. The result was great, and the game is whoever misses it the best...but he was not aiming at the pin.

As to #18 at Pebble Beach; he was protecting 272 with a chance for birdie as opposed to trying to break the record. Two different things, especially with a 15 shot lead.

[JMEvensky]

Pat,

Freeze that video at the 1:38 mark. His entire body is lined up 50 feet left of the pin. His body reaction immediately after impact is that of a pushed shot. The result was great, and the game is whoever misses it the best...but he was not aiming at the pin.

Pat,along with every other sentient being on the planet,knows this.

But he's in too deep now to back off his argument. And all I've done is given him more green ink possibilities.

[JESII]

I guess I'm just bored!?!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Freeze that video at the 1:38 mark. His entire body is lined up 50 feet left of the pin. His body reaction immediately after impact is that of a pushed shot. The result was great, and the game is whoever misses it the best...but he was not aiming at the pin.

Look where his feet are lined up, between the far right bunker and the next bunker, almost directly at the flag.
In addition, I doubt that he was trying to draw the ball.  A fade, with a slightly open stance would seem more likely.
You're position would have us believe that if he didn't push the shot he'd be in the back bunker, faced with an incredibly difficult up and down.

The next time I run into him, I'll ask him about that shot and settle it once and for all.

As to #18 at Pebble Beach; he was protecting 272 with a chance for birdie as opposed to trying to break the record.
Two different things,

You're bored and confused.

Birdying the hole breaks the record, hitting it OB or in the Pacific destroys his goal of a bogey free round.

[JESII]

Pat,

That is the gap between bunkers 40 feet left of the flag. You cannot see the flag in that shot, it's behind the tree.

Do you agree that Tiger was trying to make par with a chance at birdie on 18 at Pebble? Would you call that conservative or aggressive with a 15 shot lead?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

That is the gap between bunkers 40 feet left of the flag.

Now it's down to 40 feet from 60 feet.
You're getting closer.

You cannot see the flag in that shot, it's behind the tree.

Jim, go to Google Earth and I think you'll see the error of your ways.

Do you agree that Tiger was trying to make par with a chance at birdie on 18 at Pebble?
Would you call that conservative or aggressive with a 15 shot lead?

You're forgetting about his stated goal, to avoid making a bogey.
I think he was trying to make birdie while taking bogey or double bogey or higher out of the equation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

The more I look at the aerial, the more convinced I am that Tiger HAD to cut that shot, that a straight shot to the flag would have a good chance of hitting the intervening trees.

Take a good look at the hole on Google Earth and I think you'll see that he didn't push the shot.
A "pushed" shot would have hit the trees.  Only a cut shot could get around them...... unless, he hit it so high that he didn't need to cut it.

[Quinn Thompson]

...blame Titleist, blame King Cobra, blame Toro, blame the Lord, blame mechanics, blame plastic tees, blame ladies balls, blame Sam Snead, blame the Bears, blame the Scots, the IRA, blame the spirit, blame Bobby Jones, blame the pin, blame Watson, blame the Germans, blame History, blame Tea, blame the sheep, blame Tom Morris, blame Tiger Woods...... and last, blame yourself.

[Quinn Thompson]

...what would Mr. Morris have done ?

[Bryan Izatt]

Tiger was aligned with the right lobe of the middle bunker.  See below. 

The pin was behind the trees.  Also see below.

The pin was 45 to 50 feet to the right of Tiger's alignment.  See second picture below.

If you go frame by frame in the video, you can see the ball pushed toward the right and rising over the trees between Tiger and the pin.

Jim 1  Patrick 0





 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

I think your red line is off at his feet, and a little off at his feet will produce the variation at the green,
and the aerial indicates that he didn't hit it through the trees by "pushing" the ball as was claimed