Previously unknown pictures of Pine Valley dating to 1913-22 NEW: photos ID'ed

[Mark Bourgeois]

From the Smithsonian Institution's Thomas Warren Sears Collection, located in the Archives of American Gardens: http://tinyurl.com/cb9xb7r

Mislabeled as a Maryland course until recently, the images remained effectively hidden from the public. As such, the Institution was unaware of their historical significance.

Although the images shown are low quality, for a fee the Smithsonian will provide high-resolution scans of the original glass negatives.

Enjoy!

EDIT: See Reply #57 for additional information.

[Scott Warren]

I have seen a few of those previously - I think Michael Dugger first (that I saw) posted them on here.

But definitely some I haven't come across before. Thanks for finding and sharing!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

What a great find, that sure is neat stuff.

Those fairways look pretty wide and it appears that there's an abundance of pines in the backround, no doubt accounting for the name.

Almost 100 years later the golf course remains incredibly relevant.

[Joe Bausch]

Pat,

If the club ever wants to reinstitute the pimple on 18, they have a nice photo for guidance!   

[Mark McKeever]

Great find!  There are a few incredible pictures in there.  Anyone going to take a crack at which holes are in which pictures.


Mark

[BCrosby]

Mark -

Amazing.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Isn't it, Bob?

I agree with Mark McKeever, it would be great if someone could take a crack at what we're looking at, using the "Local Numbers" for identification NOT the numbers you see on the pics themselves. In other words NJ545000 .. NJ545027.

A handful of records contain zoomed and cropped images. Click on "Show details" over to the right, next to the photo.

For example, the NJ545007, whose total image is this:


...also shows this zoom:


NJ545017 doesn't seem to show too much at first glance:


...but then we see two zooms including this one:


I wonder what else might be hiding in the Sears Collection, and in the Gardens archives? I have seen references to CB Macdonald's Ballyshear in there.

[RJ_Daley]

Thanks to all you archive trolls for your great efforts.   

[BCrosby]

Mark -

Any idea about dates? Some look to be taken during construction, others much later.

Bob

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bob,

I don't think the Smithsonian knows from the files / plates. The plates weren't labelled so they could only frame the dates in general terms (1913-22). I think they've had some expert input but I don't know the content of that -- I assume if the plates could have been dated more precisely that would appear in the descriptions.

Mark

[Mark McKeever]

Please feel free to copy this post and make additions as you find them.  Mark


Picture 17: hole 3 from short right of the green
Picture 21: hole 2 from the tee
Picture 24: hole 18 from the tee
Picture 25: hole 5 from the tee
Picture 26: 18 green looking back with pimple on the green
Picture 27: Hole 10 from short right of the green

[Patrick_Mucci]

Isn't it, Bob?

I agree with Mark McKeever, it would be great if someone could take a crack at what we're looking at, using the "Local Numbers" for identification NOT the numbers you see on the pics themselves. In other words NJ545000 .. NJ545027.

A handful of records contain zoomed and cropped images. Click on "Show details" over to the right, next to the photo.

For example, the NJ545007, whose total image is this:
# 4


...also shows this zoom:# 4


NJ545017 doesn't seem to show too much at first glance:
# 7


...but then we see two zooms including this one:


I wonder what else might be hiding in the Sears Collection, and in the Gardens archives? I have seen references to CB Macdonald's Ballyshear in there.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I only had a quick look, but what jumped out at me are the bold grass face bunkers (see image 22). These bunkers look like "Colt bunkers" seen in historic photos of the Toronto and Hamilton courses taken about the same time. Interesting...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

What do you think the stakes are for in the second picture above (03170) ?

I'm trying to figure out 03182

[Bill Shotzbarger]

There's not much sense in using a sequential numbering of images theory (god that sounds complicated) IF

03164 (local no. NJ545003) is 18 fairway



and 03190 (local no. NJ545023) is 18 tee



Of course, that's only if I'm correct in those 2 guesses.

5 tee



4 green



this looks like 2 approach? I think it's similar to the inside cover in Finegan's book (which I don't have on me at the moment)



I want to say this is 3 tee, given that there is already a pic of that green, and the way the trees lie in the background

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bill, those numbers superimposed on the pictures are not sequential. The "numbers of record" are the the so-called local numbers. They start with "NJ..."

The negative plates came to the Smithsonian in boxes without much in the way of labels and with no exact dates. It was kind of a guess to figure out where each photographic series began and ended.

Do these pictures look like they were taken in the same session? Some appear to be construction photos; some show golfers playing golf.

Also, I know they're low res and may be distorted, but what does everyone make of the turf, in particular the areas that appear to be rough? Just long shadows, grow-in, what?

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Bill, those numbers superimposed on the pictures are not sequential. The "numbers of record" are the the so-called local numbers. They start with "NJ..."

Do these pictures look like they were taken in the same session? Some appear to be construction photos; some show golfers playing golf.

Re: the numbers: the local numbers in my example aren't sequential.

Re: the timing of the photos: The fact that there is construction going on and people playing means little. The first 11 holes (1-10, 18) were opened for play in 1914 but the course wasn't completed until 1918. So the pics could be taken all on one day in 1914-18; some before 1914, some during 1914-1918, and some after, etc...too many permutations to pinpoint one date (or more) with our info.

[Scott Warren]

I agree with Pat, this is 4 fairway:


And this is 7 fairway:


Bill S:

The below looks like it could be 3, but also looks to me maybe like 12?

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Jeff,

What do you think the stakes are for in the second picture above (03170) ?

I'm trying to figure out 03182

I'm thinking the stakes were there to hold sod around the bunkers

I believe 03182 is #1 from the right hand side bunkers on the tee side of the current path

I initially thought 03172 was 13 but the right side should drop off more so I think its 4 from the tee

[Patrick_Mucci]

Alan,

Could be, but I just can't grasp it.

It almost looks like a sharp drop off or creek on the right

[Mark McKeever]

03172 reminds me a lot of 13 from the right side of the fairway.  We don't see  the drop off very well, because I think the hillside cuts right across the center of the picture, hiding the elevation change perhaps?

Mark

[Paul_Turner]

Nice find Mark.! Some of these, or very similar, are in Colt's photobook that Crump sent to him.  I posted these here years ago, I think they've been reposted here too.

3172 is definitely 16th tee.
3173 I'm pretty sure is 17.  And I think it shows Crump's original severe green that Alison redid!?

HHA looks different!

The 18th with the pimple is shown in a magazine advertisement for Carters seeds,  so can roughly date.

[Paul_Turner]

9th I think


17th tee definitely (similar to Colt's book)


HHA

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

What do you think 03182 is ?

[Mark McKeever]

I think 03182 is a closer look at the players after their drive on hole 7.  About to cross hells half acre.

Mark