Previously unknown pictures of Pine Valley dating to 1913-22 NEW: photos ID'ed

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think 03182 is a closer look at the players after their drive on hole 7.  About to cross hells half acre.


Mark,

Than what's that elevated land form that appears to be maintained as fairway ?

Certainly not the greenside fairway on HHA

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

3182 Yes that lump is at the end of HHA.  Crump wanted and Alps like promontory at the end and to the right, I guess for a blind/obscured shot if a player drove down the right.  Travis draws this Alps lump in a depiction of the hole in about 1915/16 I can't exactly recall when.   I'm not sure when it got taken out.

[Paul_Turner]

I fact the HHA looks much like how Travis drew it then.  With crescent shaped bunkers+ waste.

[Mark McKeever]

I think 03182 is a closer look at the players after their drive on hole 7.  About to cross hells half acre.


Mark,

Than what's that elevated land form that appears to be maintained as fairway ?

Certainly not the greenside fairway on HHA

Pat,

I can't quite tell if that is a wall of sand or part of the fairway on the other side of HHA?  I would think its too close to the players to be  the fairway on the other side, so I'm leaning towards a wall of sand perhaps...

Mark

[JESII]

7 looks right to my eye for 03182...and there's still a bit of a landform on that side of the carry although not as clean as it looks in this picture.

Which ones are still unknown?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Having played # 7 a short while ago, I still can't grasp that the landform on the right is the front or face of the second fairway.

Paul, that elevation looks awfully high.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

I think 03182 is a closer look at the players after their drive on hole 7.  About to cross hells half acre.

Mark

+1

Any more guesses for 03172? I believe we have guessed #3, #4, #12, #13, #16

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

If it's none of the holes cited above, I'd go with # 1

[JESII]

3172 is definitely 16th tee.

I can't disagree.

[Paul_Turner]

Here's the photo from Colt's photo book. Its labeled 16th tee.  You can see it's the same hole (conical trees match) but a bit more finished and slightly different angle.

[Mark McKeever]

Pat,

Take a look at the right side of HHH in these pics I took this summer.  You can see a rise on the far right side of HHH, though its not as pronounced and clean as in the old pictures.   The players were probably standing about where the big trees are on the right hand side. 



Mark

[Mark McKeever]

From just in front of HHH.  You can see a rise on the right side, its just got some scrub pines growing on it now.



Mark

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Mark as soon as I read your thoughts on it being 7 I knew where you were talking about, but the elevation looks higher in the old picture - then again erosion, scrub and the angle all change it..... #1 from wayyy right would have a similar look but the bunkers aren't quite as deep as in the old picture so I do think you're right

[JESII]

How about 03162? Alan or Paul, any thoughts?

#9 is the only hole that makes any sense to me but the background doesn't seem the same.

Paul, did Allison redo the 9th green end when he came in? Is it possible he lengthened the hole? Moving the green (the left green) closer to the drop off to 18?

[Ian Andrew]

I think 03182 is a closer look at the players after their drive on hole 7.  About to cross hells half acre.

Mark

+1

Any more guesses for 03172? I believe we have guessed #3, #4, #12, #13, #16

second shot on the 13th hole - landforms match - just way more open.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

How about 03162? Alan or Paul, any thoughts?

#9 is the only hole that makes any sense to me but the background doesn't seem the same.

Paul, did Allison redo the 9th green end when he came in? Is it possible he lengthened the hole? Moving the green (the left green) closer to the drop off to 18?

I'm going with 1, #9 at that time was a skyline green. I say 1 because the buildings to the right are the old maintenance shop and the right side bunkering looks right. If I'm rigth this time, and with the trees near the green it means my earlier guess for 03182 was definitely wrong and it is 7 by HHA

[archie_struthers]

 


3172.   It looks to me like the tee shot on #4.     Remember its hard to get a reference for elevation in these pictures.   Note the bunker,s right and the left to right cant going up the hill ,  what do you guys think

[Mark McKeever]

Alan,

Could 03162 be a shot from the far outside corner of the dogleg on hole 1?  And 2 can be seen heading out on the left??

Mark

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

3172.   It looks to me like the tee shot on #4.     Remember its hard to get a reference for elevation in these pictures.   Note the bunker,s right and the left to right cant going up the hill ,  what do you guys think

That's what I think too, I didn't get into the details earlier. It does look like 13 but the land under the trees to the left are closer to the land between 3&4 than 13 &15 which falls more right to left. The bunkers up the left side look more substantial than what in in the woods on 13 and closer to those on the left of 4.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Alan,

Could 03162 be a shot from the far outside corner of the dogleg on hole 1?  And 2 can be seen heading out on the left??

Mark

exactly what I was thinking

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Here's the photo from Colt's photo book. Its labeled 16th tee.  You can see it's the same hole (conical trees match) but a bit more finished and slightly different angle.

Paul, good call on that one. Even the footpath is at a similar angle.

If 03172 is 16, as Paul suggests, that would mean at least this picture is pre-1918 since the hole appears unfinished or newly finished.

Does anyone know when the clubhouse was built? I know it was done before the course was completed.

"In 1914 the first eleven holes to be built (one through 10, plus the 18th) opened for play. Three more holes—11, 16, and 17—were completed the following year. To get in a round of 18 holes, the golfers of the time played the existing 14 holes, then replayed the first four, which, conveniently, brought them right back to the clubhouse." Finegan.

Perhaps these pics were taken in 1915 or shortly thereafter, since 03172 is probably 16, and the hole looks either unfinished or just completed. If we know when the clubhouse was finished, we can deduce that most of these pics were taken after the clubhouse being built but before the entire course was finished in 1918.

Does this seem logical?

[Paul_Turner]

Bill

I think 1915 is about right.

Jim

3162 I'm not sure, but could be 1st.  I can check the Colt book for a comparison.

I don't think it's the 9th.  I'm fairly confident that 3174 is the 9th tee.  Yes Alison did the right/lower green, Maxwell the left green in the 1920s.

[Mark McKeever]

Okay guys.  

This makes sense now regarding the HHA discussions.  03188 is obviously HHA with a tall white tower to the left of the hole.  That same tower can be seen in the left side of photo 03181 which can now clearly say is the 7th hole.  

Whether that hill on the far side is grass or sand I guess is TBD.  I hope we can get some high resolution scans soon.  

9th I think


17th tee definitely (similar to Colt's book)


HHA

I agree with Pat, this is 4 fairway:


And this is 7 fairway:


Bill S:

The below looks like it could be 3, but also looks to me maybe like 12?

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

I dont see that anyone has taken a crack at 03177.

6th tee???

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3177 by macmalc, on Flickr[/img]

Could 03173 be the skyline green at 9? You can see treetops to the right which might be down on 18.

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3173 by macmalc, on Flickr[/img]

[Paul_Turner]

3177 is definitely 8th green

3173 is definitely 17th green.