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Bill Brightly

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Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« on: November 29, 2012, 05:12:45 PM »
Ran's comments posted below




Well, actually he has not commented.  I know he does not post here very often, but this is certainly one time that I wish he would.

What say you, Ran?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 09:57:08 PM by Bill Brightly »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Ran Morrissett comments on the work at TOC
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 06:28:54 PM »
I've been wondering about that myself.  Perhaps he is on the waiting list at the R & A.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran Morrissett comments on the work at TOC
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 06:50:23 PM »
Without enough/all necessary information nor an official standing in the golf world, I would not expect Ran to comment.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran Morrissett comments on the work at TOC
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 06:51:42 PM »
Maybe an interesting December Interviewee or 2?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran Morrissett comments on the work at TOC
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 08:34:21 PM »
Judging by some of the other posts around this means Ran must have known what was happening and should resign!  ;)
Cave Nil Vino

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Ran Morrissett comments on the work at TOC
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 09:40:00 PM »
Resign himself to what?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran Morrissett comments on the work at TOC
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2012, 08:38:56 PM »
Personally, I hesitate making comments about/on what could be inaccurate or incomplete information. It's clear that the work is being done, and perhaps the best thing left to do is to evaluate it at the conclusion of the project. Plus, I haven’t been to St. Andrews in 11 years so making strong statements seems to be in poor form. However,  ;) having stated those qualifications, I like many others who share an unreserved love of The Old Course feel compelled to comment.

Obviously, the Links Trust has the clear authority to make changes to The Old Courses and many changes have occurred there over the decades. So, what’s the big deal that a handful of modifications are being implemented? After all The Links Trust has been a very good steward since its creation in 1974. They have had ample opportunity to capitulate and make foolish changes based on the design vagaries that came with each passing decade. Until now, they have resisted.

As much as the actual plans themselves, what strikes me as odd is the furtive manner in which the Links Trust has moved and the manner in which they thrust this work on the rest of the world. They contend that they have carefully considered options for 7 months. I am sure they have but still why act in this manner? Why not bring the plans forward, consider varying points of view for a finite period of time (say 3 months), and then proceed in what ever manner they best see fit? I would think that a historical landmark like the Old Course that is open to the public deserves a measured approach that is open to the public. A majority of us probably agree on this point. No reason in the world exists for them to move in such a closed door manner that both incites and invites harsh criticism.

Yet, it’s their prerogative and that’s how they have elected to proceed. So be it. We are left to study the merits of their plan (and then soon the actual in the dirt work).

In general, the underlying problem seems to be that what is driving the changes (a fear that The Old Course has become too easy and therefore irrelevant) is misguided. There is little factual support for that position. One hot golfer (Louis Oosthuizen) on a windless course does not a problem make. The Links Trust is not the R&A and they don’t control the equipment. Similar to Augusta National Golf Club, they react to the equipment that the USGA and R&A permit. Their actions clearly demonstrate a fear for The Old Course.

That’s ok but two risks of the projects now become apparent: the merit of the ideas themselves and the in the dirt execution risk as we see below:

*Modify right hand side of 2nd green. One of the best greens in golf doesn’t need to be altered. Have an easy back right hole location for the Open – or don’t. One of the joys of The Old Course is in learning her secrets and that means understanding where to miss shots. There SHOULD BE easier places from which to get up and down. The Links Trust apparently disagrees. These comments also apply to the work behind the 15th green. A well managed round at The Old Course used to include missing shots in preferred locations – I am concerned that this will apply less and less at The Old Course. Courses with shots that are hard, harder, hardest are boring. If I wanted that, I could stay in North America and play courses built in the 1980s.

* New bunker on 3rd – this doesn’t cause me much heartburn because it is consistent with the theme of the Old Course with the severe trouble being down the right while acres of short grass are provided left.

* Reducing the spur at the 4th – idiotic. Grade F. Bail left off the tee and be confronted with a blind/more awkward approach shot has been a cornerstone of design excellence at St. Andrews for over 100 years. Why possibly alter that enduring characteristic?!  >:( The greenside bunker is a less bad idea by comparison but it doesn’t accomplish anything that the mound doesn’t other than to make The Old Course become more conventional and more like other courses. Who wants that?  :'(

* Filling in the depression in the 7th fairway seems dumb on the surface but as per my opening comments, I assume there is more to this than I understand. I can’t picture the right hand side of the green but I imagine the fall off would lend itself to a couple of great hole locations. If these don’t already exist, then a recontouring might add some wicked hole locations to a hole of modest length. I am fine with that notion. However, that hole mightily impressed me during the last Open as it played the chameleon, giving the best players fits. Hence, leaving well enough alone might apply here.

*Changes to the 9th: An unloved hole whose supreme flatness makes you appreciate all the other holes. As is true for most holes in world golf, I don’t doubt that there are ways to make this hole more interesting. Maybe a bunker works. I commented half jokingly during the last Open that a bunker in the middle of the green might be of interest yet I hate seeing the Old Course head down a 1960’s path of bunker left and bunker right as being the default fix. Are we sure there isn’t a bunker pattern that might be more clever/devious? Even a nasty trough bunker (something narrow almost like a ditch) behind the green might make the big boys think twice about bombs away from the tee.

*Hole 11: During the last two Opens there, I was extremely disappointed in how the Eden played. I saw no fireworks and the hole locations looked and played similar. Somewhat shockingly, I find myself interested/supportive in their recovering greater variety to this hole (including a back hole location). However, the execution risk is of the highest order.

*Hole 17: Enlarging the bunker makes no sense as it has the great potential to make the hole play easier, which is exactly opposite of what is driving the changes. A pit with awkward stances is what provides the teeth to that bunker and as its footprint expands, you will likely lose that design feature/attribute. Recontouring the green so that more balls feed into the Road bunker has merit because watching a ball trickle along the ground toward toward death is one of the great joys of the game but again, the execution risk is of the highest magnitude imaginable at the world’s most famous green complex.

That’s my take. The next thing is go see the work in the spring.

Cheers,

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran Morrissett comments on the work at TOC
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 09:39:04 PM »
Thanks Ran
If the Links Trust met with you prior to the construction and agreed with you and revamped the plan to only include modifying the 11th green, would you have approved the construction/change?
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran Morrissett comments on the work at TOC
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 11:48:25 PM »
Ran,

I think that's a very reasonable assessment. 

I would perhaps quibble a little regarding 11 but that is based on watching a lot of club golfers play the hole. It is a fearsome hole for anyone over a 5 handicap even in still conditions. I didn't see or at least don't remember a lot of watching the pros play it during the last Open. The danger for me is that the risk versus reward on the works is very high.  It is conceivable that they could improve it, but it is just as conceivable that they carry out their plan to the letter and in the ground it just doesn't work as they expected.  The third option is the horror scenario where they just cock it up royally.

I agree wholeheartedly with your points about 2,3,4,7, and 9.  I also like your comparison of 15 to 2, the two holes on the course with the best "good miss" areas.  This miss is likely to leave a 10yd+ putt but it will be reasonably straight and leave a good chance of saving par. 

At 17 you risk the same 3 outcomes as the work at 11.  Working logically thru the changes they might work, but the risk reward isn't great.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2012, 09:47:00 AM »
It's early on a Sunday morning, so perhaps I'm wrong. But, my interpretation of Ran's comments here is that he sees absolutely no reason for the changes being proposed/made at the Old Course; other than recapturing some hole locations at the Eden (!). 

In theory, I'll admit, restoring a "Bobby Jones hole location" or two near(er) Hill bunker does sound interesting, and perhaps worthy. However, my fear, like all of the other ideas to alter, add and remove slope and contour is that it coud set an unfortunate precedent moving forward. In other words, if reducing the slope on the Eden green is "successful", what's next? Where would the presumed necessity of more alteration to the ground stop?

And, again, what is all of this really accomplishing? Considering the steady play of those atop the leaderboard at an Open championship, how are these peripheral features going to increase the challenge of the course? I just don't see the point. And, as Ran points out above, one of the joys of playing St. Andrews is learning and understanding where to miss shots. Many of these changes seem to be attempting to remove that "good place to miss", which is a an important characteristic of most of the truly great courses in the world - a design feature stemming from study of the Old Course, in the first place. 
jeffmingay.com

Ivan Morris

Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2012, 10:01:24 AM »
A very reasonable and reasoned post by Ran. I hope he keeps his job and doesn't have to suffer the personal abuse that I did for offering a similar view. Even though the work has begun, it's too soon to know the results. My Scottish spies tell me it will probably be a curate's egg. If they can change once, they can change again and deal with any 'mistakes' as they emerge more clearly. Overall, I am mystified more than indignant. The R & A is a very arrogant organization. They were never elected, simply appointed themselves as the arbiters of the rules and guardians of the game when times were less democratic and there was nobody to oppose them. The R & A has done 'much good' but lost its way since The Open became a source of previously unimagined, filthy lucre. Architect Hawtree is a professional. In the current financial climate, there's no way he could refuse a well-paid gig from anyone, least of all the R & A. I am prepared to bet that a curate's egg is exactly what we'll get at The Old Course. I'm not condemning it because it could turn out okay. We'll just have to wait and see. I'd prefer if the R & A was doing something about the ball and driver heads. That would be a better investment in the future survival of the game overall. To take such a huge risk with the game's history and inheritance in order to prevent pros from shooting low scores once every 5-years is bizarre and mystifying.  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 02:45:59 PM by Ivan Morris »

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2012, 11:34:18 AM »
It's early on a Sunday morning, so perhaps I'm wrong. But, my interpretation of Ran's comments here is that he sees absolutely no reason for the changes being proposed/made at the Old Course; other than recapturing some hole locations at the Eden (!). 

In theory, I'll admit, restoring a "Bobby Jones hole location" or two near(er) Hill bunker does sound interesting, and perhaps worthy. However, my fear, like all of the other ideas to alter, add and remove slope and contour is that it coud set an unfortunate precedent moving forward. In other words, if reducing the slope on the Eden green is "successful", what's next? Where would the presumed necessity of more alteration to the ground stop?

And, again, what is all of this really accomplishing? Considering the steady play of those atop the leaderboard at an Open championship, how are these peripheral features going to increase the challenge of the course? I just don't see the point. And, as Ran points out above, one of the joys of playing St. Andrews is learning and understanding where to miss shots. Many of these changes seem to be attempting to remove that "good place to miss", which is a an important characteristic of most of the truly great courses in the world - a design feature stemming from study of the Old Course, in the first place. 

+1

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2012, 12:32:08 PM »
I know the only way most of us become familiar with The Old Course is by watching the Open Championship on television; I've played there just once, and were it not for the many broadcasts I've watched of competitive rounds there, I wouldn't remember much about the course.

Nevertheless, I'm not the least bit interested in an analysis of how the current changes will affect the competitors in future Open Championships. Such an approach accepts the premise that the course's most important function is as a tournament venue. I don't accept that premise.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2012, 12:42:16 PM »

Nevertheless, I'm not the least bit interested in an analysis of how the current changes will affect the competitors in future Open Championships. Such an approach accepts the premise that the course's most important function is as a tournament venue. I don't accept that premise.


+1
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 02:36:52 PM by William_Grieve »
It's all about the golf!

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2012, 01:36:15 PM »
Nevertheless, I'm not the least bit interested in an analysis of how the current changes will affect the competitors in future Open Championships. Such an approach accepts the premise that the course's most important function is as a tournament venue. I don't accept that premise.

Exactly!
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2012, 02:35:03 PM »
the emphasis on the Open is the question
It's all about the golf!

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 05:57:19 PM »
Ran

I swear you have criticized many a Raynor Eden hole for being too soft (compared with the original) but now you're OK with an experimental softening of the original?  What's changed? 

Why not keep the green at 1990's speed, that's hardly the dark ages.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 08:51:55 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 06:14:57 PM »
As Ivan Morris' personal translator, I give you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curate's_egg

Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 09:24:43 PM »
Nevertheless, I'm not the least bit interested in an analysis of how the current changes will affect the competitors in future Open Championships. Such an approach accepts the premise that the course's most important function is as a tournament venue. I don't accept that premise.

+another.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2012, 08:46:53 AM »
I know the only way most of us become familiar with The Old Course is by watching the Open Championship on television; I've played there just once, and were it not for the many broadcasts I've watched of competitive rounds there, I wouldn't remember much about the course.

Nevertheless, I'm not the least bit interested in an analysis of how the current changes will affect the competitors in future Open Championships. Such an approach accepts the premise that the course's most important function is as a tournament venue. I don't accept that premise.
Rick,

While I'm sure many agree with you, once TOC entered into a five (5) year rota for the Open, that premise became valid in the eyes of the owners and this is their reaction.

Like Ran, I think you have to wait and judge the results, not the pre-construction plans.

But, this issue is a common issue, occurring every year at local clubs.
It's been accelerated in recent years, but, it's a common reaction to increase distance.

Many, many years ago, there was a tournament called the "Dodge Open"
It was held at Rockaway River, a neat course with interesting topography.

I'll never forget watching a young Pro drive the ball incredible distances, basically ignoring the architectural features that the rest of us had to interface with.
After one of the rounds we were discussing his game and I couldn't help but think what an advantage he had over that "static" golf course.

Now fast forward, without adding yardage over the last 50 years, would any course offer a reasonable challenge to the better to best golfers

Yardage used to be added occasionally and selectively, but with the accelerated increase in distance, yardage, pinched in bunkers and fairways are being added with alarming regularity, and, concurrent with this alteration, greens are being flattened.

What's easier to putt, a flat green or a highly contoured green ?

A problem that I see is cost.

It's easier and less expensive to add a tee to a hole than it is to incorporate substantive contour into an existing green.

Golf is moving in the wrong direction in terms of the field of play..


Ivan Morris

Re: Ran really does comment on the work at TOC
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2012, 09:40:39 AM »
Touche, Stan Mountain! Thanks to you I understand what the 'curate's egg' reference means a little more clearly that previously. My use is probably too harsh if the scales are tipping towards more bad than good. I'd prefer to give the impression that Martin Hawtree's work is more good than bad!