Please defend this bunker

[John Kavanaugh]

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/EIGCA-polls-members-on-Old-Course/2606/Default.aspx

Yea, that one.  I don't know a damn thing about links history so please tell me how this bunker is sacred ground that should not be touched.

[Jeff_Mingay]

It's not entirely the bunker, John. The size and appearance of the bunker has changed many times over the years. Opposition is more so to changing some of the slope and contour within the vicinity of this bunker.

That's my take.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's not entirely the bunker, John. The size and appearance of the bunker has changed many times over the years. Opposition is more so to changing some of the slope and contour within the vicinity of this bunker.

That's my take.

Jeff,

That is a reasonable argument.  Can we agree that something needed to be done? That picture shows a bunker fighting the ground in which it lays.

[Alex Miller]

I cannot speak for others, but the problem I have with the changes to 17 is more to do with the contouring around the bunker. Supposedly they are increasing the reach of the slope that will catch balls and bring them toward the bunker. This is a frightening proposition as the contours around that bunker are beyond unique and have been emulated (but not replicated) by many an architect. This change would alter a confluence of slopes that is in fact of the highest historical significance in the architecture world.

I don't know about its historical significance as it relates to the course or the town, but I know strategically it makes that golf hole what it is. The road, the hotel, the tee shot, would mean much much less without the bunker because it (and the slope around it) dictate how one plays that golf hole. Is it sacred ground and should it not be touched? Well, we all know that the bunker has been touched in the past. It's been reshaped, re-sodded, deepended, shallowed, who knows? But as long as it is a half to full stroke penalty for golfers then the strategy of the hole is upheld.

So why are people up in arms? Well that bunker's footprint, or effective size, is much larger than just the sand. The false front and side affect how one plays their approach, and in altering these contours the R&A seems to have made the decision to discourage the ground game in favor of making the hardest hole already harder  . We still don't know exactly what the result will be, but they're making a change. And I think that most on this site have agreed the way they went about deciding to do inject some botox into the old lady is the reason most people are upset, the changes to 2, 3, 7, 9, and 11 notwithstanding.

[Sven Nilsen]

To discuss the Road Hole Bunker you need to talk about its placement with respect to the entire hole.

The place that you don't want to be (other than in the bunker itself) is playing over the bunker, whether as a result of (a) a line off the tee to far to the left or (b) an approach that is pulled (a common result due to the threat of OB if you go over the road).

In my mind, the bunker represents an avoid at all costs position.  Its the threat of what could happen if you find it that makes it so effective. 

It can be taken out of play if the golfer executes a perfect drive that ends up aligned with the entrance to the green and if the approach is true.

The contours as they existed funneled balls into an area to the left of the green from which the golfer had to make a choice.  Either play a shot from tightly mown grass over the most fearsome bunker on the course to a narrow green with the road lurking behind, or take a safe line and face a much longer par putt.  Of course certain approach shots would find the bunker itself, but the majority of misses did not result in a shot from the bunker, rather a shot that had to be played staring at the bunker.

Now we're going to have contours that funnel an offline approach into the expanded bunker itself.  The balance of shots played from the sand vs. trying to avoid playing from the sand has swung to the side of the former in a greater degree.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you'd prefer to have more shots played from the bunker, or more shots played with the spectre of having to play from the bunker being a possible result.  I think I prefer the second option.

[Rich Goodale]

The last time the Road Hole Bunker was changed significantly was in 2002.  In 2010 Peter Dawson said publically that the next change would involved making the bunker a "gathering" one.  What's the problem?

[Alex Miller]

Here's something that I'm wondering about that hasn't been adressed; please correct me if I'm wrong.

The bunker has gotten deeper as overtime sand is expelled through wind and play. Won't maitenance have to be done more often now that they're increasing the amound of exposed sand in the bunker as well as the number of players who will be playing from it? Seems like a lack of foresight...

[Matt MacIver]

Re: the top side of the bunker I was led to believe at one point that if you had to putt from one side of the green to the other the  bunker could actually gather a shot into it.  That was a really cool concept to me, but I didn't see that in 2007 nor do I see it in pictures today.  Was that ever the case?  

[RJ_Daley]

We had a thread in 2002 when that change of TRHB was implemented.  I remember the thread had contributions of photos from across history dating back to early 1900s of how TRHB appeared.  Of course, the only record we have of how it played are oral history from the players across the decades. 

But, a good historical understanding can be had of TRHB from the oral and photographic evidence we have.  That is not even to mention the historical perspectives of the long tradition of caddies on TOC, who are among the real most credible witnesses we have to offer perspective.

In my lifetime, I felt the most representative example of how the ideal TOC could be presented, and played was the Tiger win of 2000.  It played so firm - dust and nearly sparks resulted from iron shots off the turf.  And, in a tournament where the greatest player, arguably at his lifetime peak, never once was in any bunker hazard the whole tournament, and his closest still in the hunt competitor was foiled in a RHB tragedy at the penultimate hole, demonstrated all the glory and essence of TOC.

In my view, that sort of historical evidence should be strongly considered and a consensus of all parties of standing, before any alteration of the field of play from the cradle of the game, should take place.  If TRHB needs to be altered to preserve it, in a form that can be demonstrated to reflect its historical values and design, then fine.  But, where is there any evidence that said process took place?

[John Kavanaugh]

Dick,

Do you think that Kate Smith is fat in heaven?

[Andy Stamm]

Re: the top side of the bunker I was led to believe at one point that if you had to putt from one side of the green to the other the  bunker could actually gather a shot into it.  That was a really cool concept to me, but I didn't see that in 2007 nor do I see it in pictures today.  Was that ever the case?  

In 1978 Tommy Nakajima hit the green in 2, putted into the bunker, took like 5 to get out, and I think made 9.

[JESII]

JK,

It has to have the highest impact per square foot of any feature in all of golf. Doesn't it dictate pretty much all of the players thoughts for two or three shots prior to reaching it?

[cary lichtenstein]

Avoid, lay up short, chip on for your par, what's the problem

[Sean_A]

The last time the Road Hole Bunker was changed significantly was in 2002.  In 2010 Peter Dawson said publically that the next change would involved making the bunker a "gathering" one.  What's the problem?

I'm with Rihc.  I want to see the bunker play a bigger role in the hole when the flag is up front.  As it is now, everybody feels cheated if they don't get the flag level or past the bunker.  I want to see that ball on the left trickle into the bunker (its actually much closer to rolling off the green than it looks, but I think it would miss the bunker from there back then).  I hit it there and I know it was a poor shot on the wrong side of the flag, but I was not penalized for my mistake.  I want to see nothing less than a damn near perfect shot rewarded when being left of the flag - mine is far too wide not to be doomed.  Gathering bunkers equals good links bunkers.  


Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

JK,

It has to have the highest impact per square foot of any feature in all of golf. Doesn't it dictate pretty much all of the players thoughts for two or three shots prior to reaching it?

Jim:

From Robert Hunter's The Links (specifically, the caption of the included photo of the 17th Green):

"The little pot bunker on the left of the green cannot be seen, but its power is such that it dominates the play all the way from the tee."

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jeff,

That is a reasonable argument.  Can we agree that something needed to be done? That picture shows a bunker fighting the ground in which it lays.

Aesthetically? Yes, we can agree that bunker can be changed in appearance without detriment to the course

[Rick Shefchik]

I want to see the bunker play a bigger role in the hole when the flag is up front.  

I want to see the bunker restored to whatever dimensions are most representative of the way it played for the bulk of the 20th Century. And then I want it to stay that way.

[Bryan Izatt]

The last time the Road Hole Bunker was changed significantly was in 2002.  In 2010 Peter Dawson said publically that the next change would involved making the bunker a "gathering" one.  What's the problem?

I'm with Rihc.  I want to see the bunker play a bigger role in the hole when the flag is up front.  As it is now, everybody feels cheated if they don't get the flag level or past the bunker.  I want to see that ball on the left trickle into the bunker (its actually much closer to rolling off the green than it looks, but I think it would miss the bunker from there back then).  I hit it there and I know it was a poor shot on the wrong side of the flag, but I was not penalized for my mistake.  I want to see nothing less than a damn near perfect shot rewarded when being left of the flag - mine is far too wide not to be doomed.  Gathering bunkers equals good links bunkers.  


Ciao

My goodness Sean,  you must be a masochist if you want to be punished for a shot that little off to the wrong side of the pin!  Here's a pic from the side that shows that the ball running off the bunker side of the green likely wouldn't be sucked into the bunker.  But it doesn't look like it would take much to contouring to the right of the trolley to funnel the ball into the bunker.