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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2012, 06:18:04 PM »
Tony,  I believe the esteemed Coach Wooden did lift that quote and sentiment from another fellow.

Change is scientific, progress is ethical; change is indubitable, whereas progress is a matter of controversy.
-Bertrand Russell

I've heard it another way as well:

...change is the mere application of technology and science, but to have true progress requires the additional application of ethics. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2012, 06:30:02 PM »
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/EIGCA-polls-members-on-Old-Course/2606/Default.aspx

I think we have an indication where the EIGCA President is on this one...

"EIGCA president, Rainer Preissmann said: “In the last few days there has been much debate within the golf industry about the improvements being carried out to strengthen the Old Course for the world's top golfers."

He calls them "improvements". Not alterations, changes... "improvements."

Perhaps his English is poor... but...

To steal a line from the great John Wooden... "Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress."





"...improvements...to strengthen the Old Course..."

Skewed is right on.   

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2012, 06:44:02 PM »
Tony,  I believe the esteemed Coach Wooden did lift that quote and sentiment from another fellow.

Change is scientific, progress is ethical; change is indubitable, whereas progress is a matter of controversy.
-Bertrand Russell

I've heard it another way as well:

...change is the mere application of technology and science, but to have true progress requires the additional application of ethics. 
I like John Wooden's best. Concise and crystal clear.

I also like his pairs of 3's. He lifted them too... from his father :)


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2012, 07:41:17 PM »
I think this EIGCA poll is about the best result the R&A could have hoped for.

It will produce something like:

35% don't mind changes
35% mind changes
30% have no opinion

This will allow the R&A to say look its not a clear cut case.
EIGCA will say that they consulted their members and they have no clear mandate
And the EIGCA members can stay anonymous with their opinions

Why do the Europeans need a poll an did the Americans and Oz architects not need a poll?

I hope you are wrong Frank. 

Before this fiasco, I'd have bet that the vast majority of architects would regard The Old Course as "off limits".
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2012, 08:12:26 PM »

Before this fiasco, I'd have bet that the vast majority of architects would regard The Old Course as "off limits".

On The Island yes. Elsewhere I'm not too sure. Though, it is one from The Island carrying out the work! And from the oldest family in the business!!! It's a wee bit mind boggling, like you'll wake up in the morning and realize it was all a bad dream.

The poll is too late to have any real meaning as the tidal wave has already washed ashore. The result will be skewed due to political correctness.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2012, 08:40:23 PM »

Before this fiasco, I'd have bet that the vast majority of architects would regard The Old Course as "off limits".

On The Island yes. Elsewhere I'm not too sure. Though, it is one from The Island carrying out the work! And from the oldest family in the business!!! It's a wee bit mind boggling, like you'll wake up in the morning and realize it was all a bad dream.

The poll is too late to have any real meaning as the tidal wave has already washed ashore. The result will be skewed due to political correctness.

Tony

Actually "The Island" is another links redesign by the Dr H!
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2012, 09:28:30 PM »
John,

Once again you and others confuse the WHO with the WHY.  You can't improve on perfection and you don't F&#@ with national and international historic treasures in the name of protecting par.  Who's doing the buggering is simply a footnote for the credit reel.

Well said.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2012, 02:37:02 AM »
Would be interesting to hear what the EIGCA members on this forum think about the poll?

Then again they probably are not allowed to talk about it  ;)

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2012, 04:09:50 AM »
I think the three options given weren't suitable because they left no middle ground between an absolute (i.e. No changes should take place) and an unsatisfactory next level (renovation can take place after thorough historic research).

Believing that second option gave too much of a get-out-clause and most answers will be skewed towards it, I was left with no choice other than Option 1.

The poll is anonymous.

As an aside, Rainer Preissman is a complete gentleman. Whether he used the word "improvement" because English isn't his first language, or whether it is because "improvement" is common vernacular for course renovations... or whether he used it because he believes it... it doesn't matter... I know no harder working individual who cares about his presidency, about passing on his knowledge and about being generally decent... The witch hunt and second guessing of architect's motives needs to stop.

Also, even IF the EIGCA & ASGCA members were actively encouraged to criticise their peers' work, do you think they would really do so on a public forum where the typed word shows everything up so harshly, where people become emboldened beyond their natural character and where the default position is either black or white? I'm about as vocal as it gets and I stop myself on most occasions not because of a code of conduct but because I just think it's plain rude. And also because I realise I'm not always fully informed.


Philip Spogard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2012, 04:12:14 AM »
As an aside, Rainer Preissman is a complete gentleman. Whether he used the word "improvement" because English isn't his first language, or whether it is because "improvement" is common vernacular for course renovations... or whether he used it because he believes it... it doesn't matter... I know no harder working individual who cares about his presidency, about passing on his knowledge and about being generally decent... The witch hunt and second guessing of architect's motives needs to stop.

Also, even IF the EIGCA & ASGCA members were actively encouraged to criticise their peers' work, do you think they would really do so on a public forum where the typed word shows everything up so harshly, where people become emboldened beyond their natural character and where the default position is either black or white? I'm about as vocal as it gets and I stop myself on most occasions not because of a code of conduct but because I just think it's plain rude. And also because I realise I'm not always fully informed.



Amen.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2012, 04:52:18 AM »
I've voted and for what it is worth I took option 2, though I believe absolutely that those involved in the decision already did take the historical aspects into consideration.  As one of the few people on this forum who has had business dealings with all three organisations involved, Hawtree's (as an employee of Martin's), the Links Trust (as a finalist in the No.7 design competition), and the R&A (through my ongoing work as Chairman of the EIGCA's Technology sub-committee) I have faith in all of them to have approached this contentious task with a thorough investigation.   

At the beginning of the week, like many here, I was a bit put out by the principal of what is going on and that has not especially changed.  But I have been appalled by some of the personal insults flying around, especially towards Martin Hawtree, who I know to be one of the most learned and responsible architects living.  He does not take decisions lightly and I am entirely comfortable with his appointment. If you don't like his work then that is fine, but this is a man who i believe has done more for the profession of golf course architecture through his long career than ANY contributor to this site.  I can't endorse a campaign that is prepared to be so personally insulting.

What I think this issue will serve to do is bring the technology debate into sharp focus.  The lengthening options for The Old Course are pretty much exhausted, so what is left is to refine the target areas to take account of the shorter approach shot lengths.  I'm midway through a survey for the EIGCA that will hopefully highlight a significant aspect of this issue and may help to influence the governing bodies to pursue a course of change.  This, I think is a far more positive approach to seeking a moratorium on the perceived need for changes to the Old Course than firing insults at those involved, so that is where I shall be focussing my efforts.

It's a shame that the Old Course is being changed in this way, and it is right to raise concerns.  The manner of some of these objections is the problem for me and making it personal weakens the message, in my view.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2012, 05:30:25 AM »
Also, even IF the EIGCA & ASGCA members were actively encouraged to criticise their peers' work, do you think they would really do so on a public forum where the typed word shows everything up so harshly, where people become emboldened beyond their natural character and where the default position is either black or white? I'm about as vocal as it gets and I stop myself on most occasions not because of a code of conduct but because I just think it's plain rude. And also because I realise I'm not always fully informed.

It seems this poll was not thought through then.

1. If the EIGCA comes out against what is being done, this is about the most public and serious criticism it could make against a golf architect, and in this case a member. It is a one-stop shot against those hired to do the work. So perhaps Frank is right with his percentages.

Could a vote lopsided against what is happening be any more serious slap in the face?

In any event we will find that either the EIGCA is not in the camp of Mackenzie and Colt... who proclaimed this was sacred ground, or the EIGCA condemns one of its members... without a word... but a virtual vote of non-confidence.

I could see some of the "defenders" wanting the results made public so they don't get lumped into the camp of supporting what is happening to the Old Course. Or doing what Robin had done and explain his vote.

2. The code may not stop you, but EIGCA's restrictions on free speech are an assault on what makes business open, vibrant and improving.

The old architects (before the creation of architect associations) were not shy about offering an opinion, and we reference some of their words today. We wish their was more. In fact, Dr. Mackenzie's clear voice on The Old Course sends a rocket into the house of those who chose to slice the Old Course open. I wonder what he would be doing today... surely he and his compatriots voices would be clear and forceful. Joshua Crane might have been campaigning to alter the first greensite!

Have you read Robert Hunter's assessment of Seth Raynor's work in The Links? That was thermonuclear war. Who benefited? Developers, golfers and their communities. "

With EIGCA rules in place we would have lost (and have lost) a lot of valuable insight. I wonder... how much have we lost, and how much has this cost developers? I look to some EU lands and see golfing wastelands where incredibly good golf could have been had for a song. Would the club or developer have benefited from open discussion? Most certainly.


Robin,
Digging up the Old Course was not necessary to bring the technological problem into focus. What it required is the governing bodies to focus on the problem and bring it into focus through the vast media opportunities they have at their disposal.

The R&A and USGA have the power to make golf whole again. It doesn't require building new tees and digging up greens on golf courses for championships that pass through every 10 to 20-years. There is a round sphere vital to the game that travels too far. They should busy themselves with that problem and it will solve virtually all the others.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 06:17:10 AM by Tony Ristola »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2012, 09:04:29 AM »
There is a round sphere vital to the game that travels too far. They should busy themselves with that problem and it will solve virtually all the others.


But, you see, they don't have to take that uncomfortable step, when they can just require everyone to keep changing golf courses instead and they don't have to make any hard decisions against their buddies in the equipment industry.

It's also become clear this week that they would rather rule against technique than against equipment.

Can we sort out what the two issues have in common?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2012, 09:34:52 AM »
There is a round sphere vital to the game that travels too far. They should busy themselves with that problem and it will solve virtually all the others.


But, you see, they don't have to take that uncomfortable step, when they can just require everyone to keep changing golf courses instead and they don't have to make any hard decisions against their buddies in the equipment industry.

It's also become clear this week that they would rather rule against technique than against equipment.

Can we sort out what the two issues have in common?
Lawsuits and legal fees ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2012, 09:35:06 AM »
There is a round sphere vital to the game that travels too far. They should busy themselves with that problem and it will solve virtually all the others.


But, you see, they don't have to take that uncomfortable step, when they can just require everyone to keep changing golf courses instead and they don't have to make any hard decisions against their buddies in the equipment industry.

It's also become clear this week that they would rather rule against technique than against equipment.

Can we sort out what the two issues have in common?

Keegan Bradley will put up a far weaker defense than Wally Uihlein.

Could it be said that many architects have a vested interest in NOT reining in equipment or agronomy as it keeps renovation work coming?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Philip Spogard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2012, 10:18:28 AM »

[/quote]


Could it be said that many architects have a vested interest in NOT reining in equipment or agronomy as it keeps renovation work coming?
[/quote]

Jeff,

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. Many architects speak out against continually changing the older courses - which I believe has been very visible in the case of TOC and on GCA in general.

A lot of renovation work, from my experience, has more to do with trying to solve the bigger issues (a bad routing, blind holes, etc.) and perhaps oversee a change of bunkering style, changing problematic/boring/poorly constructed greens, etc. to help a club improve to 'a new level' - or perhaps help 'clean up' after other failed projects.

But having said that, I do agree that the continual change in especially the technology is a driving force in terms of making courses eventually choosing to undertake some form of renovation work which might (or might not) involve an architect.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2012, 10:47:23 AM »
There is a round sphere vital to the game that travels too far. They should busy themselves with that problem and it will solve virtually all the others.


But, you see, they don't have to take that uncomfortable step, when they can just require everyone to keep changing golf courses instead and they don't have to make any hard decisions against their buddies in the equipment industry.

It's also become clear this week that they would rather rule against technique than against equipment.

Can we sort out what the two issues have in common?

Keegan Bradley will put up a far weaker defense than Wally Uihlein.

Could it be said that many architects have a vested interest in NOT reining in equipment or agronomy as it keeps renovation work coming?

Jeff
I'm saying there are NO legal ramifications for banning a stroke or changing a green.  A ball, a club, a groove.  That can get expensive.  
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 11:20:23 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bryan Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2012, 11:07:07 AM »
... against their buddies in the equipment industry....

Buddies?  With friends like that, who needs enemies?!  It would be more appropriate to call them the "bullies".  I think the ruling bodies would have been much more proactive regarding the distance issue if there wasn't the ever present fear of a lawsuit.  Just my opinion.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2012, 11:18:38 AM »
Mike,

What are the legal ramifications of changing a green?  Seems like the most expedient answer, legally...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2012, 11:21:04 AM »
Mike,

What are the legal ramifications of changing a green?  Seems like the most expedient answer, legally...
Glad u caught that.  I modified post. Sorry. I don't think there r any
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2012, 11:59:59 AM »
... against their buddies in the equipment industry....

Buddies?  With friends like that, who needs enemies?!  It would be more appropriate to call them the "bullies".  I think the ruling bodies would have been much more proactive regarding the distance issue if there wasn't the ever present fear of a lawsuit.  Just my opinion.

According to Mike Davis, the ruling bodies aren't afraid of the big bad lawyers:

"We need to do what we think is right," Mike Davis said. "And shame on us if we are scared of litigation for doing the right thing."

Of course, that comment was made in the last few days about opponents to anchored putting. Where was that bravado over the past 20 years as driving distances kept increasing? Had the USGA and R&A been as tough as they're talking now, The Old Course would be unscathed.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2012, 02:18:28 PM »
... against their buddies in the equipment industry....

Buddies?  With friends like that, who needs enemies?!  It would be more appropriate to call them the "bullies".  I think the ruling bodies would have been much more proactive regarding the distance issue if there wasn't the ever present fear of a lawsuit.  Just my opinion.

According to Mike Davis, the ruling bodies aren't afraid of the big bad lawyers:

"We need to do what we think is right," Mike Davis said. "And shame on us if we are scared of litigation for doing the right thing."


Shame on them is right.
Banning innovative technique, but not equipment is about as much the "right thing" to do as  speaking publicly about target US Open speeds of 14 and 15, which he has on at least several occasions.
I guess that's just about what we should expect from someone whose reputation was made by using a few Ladies tees in championships.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2012, 02:27:03 PM »
Guys, please fill me in, what exactly were the options to choose between in the EIGCA poll?

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2012, 06:42:38 PM »
There is a round sphere vital to the game that travels too far. They should busy themselves with that problem and it will solve virtually all the others.


But, you see, they don't have to take that uncomfortable step, when they can just require everyone to keep changing golf courses instead and they don't have to make any hard decisions against their buddies in the equipment industry.

It's also become clear this week that they would rather rule against technique than against equipment.

Can we sort out what the two issues have in common?
Lawsuits and legal fees ;D

Mike... I note the smiley ;D... and respond with... a piss drop in the ocean.

I wish Steve jobs were alive. I wish he was a golfer. I wish Steve Jobs were a part of the USGA. Why? Anyone willing to spend their entire wad... 40 Billion to take down something offensive (and wrong) is my type of guy. I admire Steve Jobs for doing the right thing. He may not have been the model leader, but he had guts. We lack that today.

We could use one Steve Jobs type man in our temples of power. It's sad to say, but the past few decades has illustrated that we have eunuchs.