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Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
EIGCA poll on Old Course
« on: November 29, 2012, 10:48:16 AM »
GCAers who are also EIGCA members will already know this, but the Institute has just announced it is conducting a poll of the membership before making any official response re the Old Course works.

I don't normally post links to our site, but in this case I feel justified....

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/EIGCA-polls-members-on-Old-Course/2606/Default.aspx

Adam
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 10:50:56 AM »
Adam

That picture your mag shows of the 2010 version of the RHB makes me glad that the Links Trust has hired Hawtree.  He couldn't do any worse than what is (was?) there.....

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 10:53:33 AM »
Using that logic, they might just as well have hired you, me or Dolly the Sheep (well, Dolly's dead, but you take my point...)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 10:56:50 AM »
Adam,

What does polling thier membership accomplish?  Isn't the damage done? 

Lester

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 11:09:46 AM »
Hopefully, stop future attacks on the architectural integrity of the course.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 11:17:49 AM »
"improvements being carried out to strengthen the Old Course"

Well I hope the poll isn't couched like that.

Is it anonymous?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 11:18:37 AM »
Hopefully, stop future attacks on the architectural integrity of the course.

How, by attacking the professional integrity of an architect?  The process of the criticism I have seen is as disgusting as any process of design I have seen implied.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 11:23:45 AM »
How, by attacking the professional integrity of an architect?

No.

By getting the Stewards of the course to seek approval prior to hiring someone to make adjustments to the most iconic golf course in the world rather than begin the work and then tell everyone they are doing it and having a poll after the fact.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 11:31:01 AM »
How, by attacking the professional integrity of an architect?

No.

By getting the Stewards of the course to seek approval prior to hiring someone to make adjustments to the most iconic golf course in the world rather than begin the work and then tell everyone they are doing it and having a poll after the fact.

What good does a poll of all the guys who weren't consulted going to do?  I have seen far to many comments about how the wrong guy was hired.  That should have nothing to do with the core argument so asking his peers what they think about it is another step backward hurting the credibility of this process.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 12:00:49 PM »
John...

from my layman's perspective, I have no qualm with Mr. Hawtree at all.  I'm not familiar with his work at all, all I know is that it looks like he crushed it at Trump Scotland.

But to your point about, hurting the credibility of this process, that is the point I'm driving at.  There was no process, therefore their process lacks credibility completely.  And since we are talking about the most iconic and important golf course in the world and a public course...in fact, a muni... I believe there should have been a process where the best and brightest were brought together to discuss the matter.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 12:44:19 PM »
Mac,

I was referring to the credibility of the protest process.  In my profession if a famous engineer was hired without first asking me for permission to change the St. Louis Arch into a figure eight I could lose my license if I publicly questioned his qualifications to do the work.  Sure, no one would want to see pants on the Statue of Liberty and there are right ways and wrong ways to keep that from happening.  Your first knee jerk reaction is rarely that.

It's only two days and I'm already tired of the name calling, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 01:15:20 PM »
John,

Once again you and others confuse the WHO with the WHY.  You can't improve on perfection and you don't F&#@ with national and international historic treasures in the name of protecting par.  Who's doing the buggering is simply a footnote for the credit reel.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 02:07:31 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2012, 01:28:28 PM »
Frankly, John, I think you raise some good points.

I see where you are coming from, but, per my previous posts, I believe all the "after the fact" polls and protesting could serve a longer-term good of not having further "improvements" made on TOC without the buy-in of many experts...which due to the courses public nature/muni-status and the historic significance of it, is important.

As just mentioned, I think this matter is very important and the people who hold TOC is such high esteem may have lost this battle, but hopefully they can win the war by protesting the process that was put in place to get the changes pushed through under cover of the night.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 02:11:24 PM »
Well for starters, they're only doing half the work this winter on TOC.  If there's enough uproar perhaps they can help stop next winter's bloodletting from proceeding.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 02:21:31 PM »
Quote
What good does a poll of all the guys who weren't consulted going to do?  

Because in most professions and their professional associations, there are codes of ethics, and while many are codified and written, some are understood among professionals.  Many professions have their icons that convey a value or morality system.  Some are artistic in nature such as paintings or statutes.  Some are geographical.  Some are religious and some secular.  Most iconic objects or symbolic grounds are protected by the professionals who serve around the underlying values of the icon, or are elite guardians for the people that revere or even worship those icons.  

In terms of places, we have sacred grounds or hallowed grounds.  There are commissions that are appointed to oversee those sort of revered or hallowed geographical grounds, like Gettysburg or public treasures like the Grand Canyon, etc. Their charge is above all, preservation, so that the historical and traditional values and characteristics of those grounds can remain for all to see the cradle or original geographical significance of what took place that is so revered.  

In this case, yes, all practicing golf course architects have a profession that has its seminal origins in TOC.  It is the cradle of the game and the home field of play, from which the institution of golf has evolved and upon most GCA theory and concepts originated in some form.  Yes, there have been other changes to the original grounds.  Much of it was addressing maintenance to preserve the integrity of the original concepts and characteristics of how the field of play is to function, in accordance to the traditions of what is known about the unique conditions of how golf is played on the traditional field. And, there is an ethical and moral imperative to respect the historical ownership concept of the course, that being a public trust!!!  Trust means that with the granting of trust comes ethics, including care and preservation of that which is deemed revered and esteemed by the common users and common community owners.  When a practicing professional within the scope of the term of that profession, in concert with the trustees loses that ethical perspective of preservation and that universal concept of an obligation to 'first do no harm' to that which is entrusted, with no consensus from those who granted the trust, under a cloak of secrecy; then that professional who entered into that clandestine collaboration ought to be excoriated along with the trustees, by his peers, who do understand the ethics behind the notion that it is an unwarranted and un-entrusted defilement.  

JK's contrarian inclination to express his lack of credibility in a professional poll taken by those that call themselves practitioners within the profession, to determine what the concensus is among those practitioners, just seems odd to me.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 02:29:38 PM »
I can understand why the architectural purists are completely offended by the defiling of what is, without a doubt, the closest thing to a shrine that the game of golf has.  On the other hand, I understand the many reasons that those responsible for the golf course, which hosts major championships on a regular basis, feel compelled to do what they can to keep the course in a condition best suited for competition by the best in the game.  The interplay between classic golf course architecture and tournament golf is an itchy one indeed, especially among the classicists who would elevate original intent over current playability. 

It probably would have been better from a PR standpoint if those in charge did a better job of trying to get more voices involved, but I think it's safe to say that the primary hue and cry from the opposition would be to "leave it alone", so I can understand why they just started the work quickly.  It was going to be messy either way.

In a way, it reminds me of what our Mayor Daley did in Chicago about ten years back, when he precipitously sent bulldozers out to rip up the runways on our downtown, on the lake, airport, so he could turn it into an island park.  It was brutal, it was controversial and it was effective, at least from his perspective, because the project got done.  One can only hope that the work done at St. Andrews will not be ultimately viewed as a desecration.  I'll leave that to more knowledgeable minds than mine.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 02:44:30 PM »
Judge Lavin, an Iconic symbol:



Andreas Seranno has been commisioned by the ABA (similar to R&A commissioned Hawtree) to remodel the icon to reflect a more realistic understanding of the justice system from some frequent user's cynical prospective.  Would Seranno be hailed or criticized by his peers?  (granted there are many artists with aggressive contrarian inclinations - similar to JKs  ;) )

Would the overall practitioners in the law feel a clandestine award of the commission to remodel the icon is OK because some users of the system feel antagonistic and found some sympathetic ABA board members sympathetic? (assuming the ABA were trustees of the icon, which they are not in reality)


No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 02:53:06 PM »
Dick,

Your iconic symbol is biased, since the scales of justice are already tipped.  In that respect, it may be correct, especially if viewed in the lens of looking at the Justice Department, which is listed on the scissors of in the second photograph.  Even if they take no prisoners, they would like to cut off the occasional trophy!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 03:24:12 PM »
I think this EIGCA poll is about the best result the R&A could have hoped for.

It wil produce somthing like:

35% don't mind changes
35% mind changes
30% have no opinion

This will aloow the R&A to say look its not a clear cut case.
EIGCA will say that they consulted their members and they have no clear mandate
And the EIGCA members can stay anonimous with their opinions

Why do the Europeans need a poll an did the Americans and Oz architects not need a poll?

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2012, 03:41:48 PM »
There are more plans in the pipeline for this time next year so the feedback / noise isn't altogether fruitless.
@Pure_Golf

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2012, 04:12:33 PM »
" No official position".

Wait a minute. Who are the 'patrons' of the EIGCA?

Ehm, oh yes, a couple of PGA things, GEO, the Euro tour, oh, and, eh, the R&A.

Not holding any breath in anticipation...

F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2012, 04:16:48 PM »
The poll is  skewed so that the majority of the  answers will go to one of one of the questions
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2012, 04:54:07 PM »
Too late for a meaningful poll.

Ideally this would have been done days after the announcement.




Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2012, 05:02:21 PM »
Mac,

I assure you ther was a process.  Just because the rest of the world wasn't asked their opinion, doesn't mean the process didn't occur.  It (the process) may lack credibility in your mind, but it obviously doesn't in the minds of the trust who approved it.

Lester

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: EIGCA poll on Old Course
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2012, 05:37:41 PM »
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/EIGCA-polls-members-on-Old-Course/2606/Default.aspx

I think we have an indication where the EIGCA President is on this one...

"EIGCA president, Rainer Preissmann said: “In the last few days there has been much debate within the golf industry about the improvements being carried out to strengthen the Old Course for the world's top golfers."

He calls them "improvements". Not alterations, changes... "improvements."

Perhaps his English is poor... but...

To steal a line from the great John Wooden... "Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress."