Contour.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'll admit, changing the Eden green has not made me happy. But, that aside, proposals to adjust/modifiy contour adjacent to a number of greens at St. Andrews has me as perplexed.

It's as simple as this: The natural contour at the Old Course has long been admired (actually, marvelled at) and studied, and many, many attempts to mimic the best parts of that ground have been made across the globe. It's widely acknowledged - and I know this from experience  - that's it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to create contour that competes with those humps, bumps, rolls and hollows created by natural mechanisms.

Moreover, some times you miss a green at St. Andrews (or anywhere) and contour puts you in a very difficult spot (usually depending on the location of the hole). Some times, contour assists you. Then other times, you just end up with a decent lie/opportunity no matter how poor your previous stroke was or where the hole is cut due to the so-called "rub of the green" #golf

So, this said - and, this post is made entirely for the sake of architectural discussion, not blatant criticism - what do these changes to the green surrounds at St. Andrews aim to accomplish? Does anyone have the details of these proposals, if they exist? I'm simply wondering how this re-contouring is going to "increase the challenge" at St. Andrews relative to how Opens have been played out there in the past?

Enlighten someone who doesn't seem to get it, if you can... please, and thank you,  

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Jeff

When you get a little older and experienced as Peter Dawson is on these intricate matters, then you will know.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'll admit, changing the Eden green has not made me happy. But, that aside, proposals to adjust/modifiy contour adjacent to a number of greens at St. Andrews has me as perplexed.

It's as simple as this: The natural contour at the Old Course has long been admired (actually, marvelled at) and studied, and many, many attempts to mimic the best parts of that ground have been made across the globe. It's widely acknowledged - and I know this from experience  - that's it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to create contour that competes with those humps, bumps, rolls and hollows created by natural mechanisms.

Moreover, some times you miss a green at St. Andrews (or anywhere) and contour puts you in a very difficult spot (usually depending on the location of the hole). Some times, contour assists you. Then other times, you just end up with a decent lie/opportunity no matter how poor your previous stroke was or where the hole is cut due to the so-called "rub of the green" #golf

So, this said - and, this post is made entirely for the sake of architectural discussion, not blatant criticism - what do these changes to the green surrounds at St. Andrews aim to accomplish? Does anyone have the details of these proposals, if they exist? I'm simply wondering how this re-contouring is going to "increase the challenge" at St. Andrews relative to how Opens have been played out there in the past?

Enlighten someone who doesn't seem to get it, if you can... please, and thank you,  

Jeff, I have to say, whilst I dislike strongly the idea of all the other changes being made (and the way they came about), at least they all have some reasoning behind them, however misguided some of us may think it is... But the creation of undulation to the right of 2,4,6,7 & 15 greens has me similarly perplexed... I don't like the idea one bit....

[Jeff_Mingay]

Damn, Dick... might your learned comment end this thread! (I hope not!)

Who's older, you or Peter Dawson

[Mike Nuzzo]

Jeff
When you get a little older and experienced as Peter Dawson is on these intricate matters, then you will know.

 

[Frank Pont]

Jeff ,

it might have to do with "framing" the greens more? In the renovation work of Dr H I have often seen that when he changes a green he includes moundings around the green, esspecially in the back, which make the green more visible from a distance. Examples I saw are Pan holes 5 and 7, most of the R Dublin greens and 2 new greens at Belvoir Park

Also these new mounds around the rebuilt greens are often used to create contours running into the green. That will not work here though because as I understand it they will not be touching the greens themselves (I hope).

[Sean_A]

Do folks think that the powers that be are envisioning more misses right with the bunkers pushed greenside and that this area is easy to recover from?  From memory, right isn't bad at all, but I could be wrong. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Do folks think that the powers that be are envisioning more misses right with the bunkers pushed greenside and that this area is easy to recover from?  From memory, right isn't bad at all, but I could be wrong.  

Ciao

That's what I'd suspect, Sean. Right is flat and safe(ish) on many of these holes, isn't it?

Frank - I'd expect as many swales as mounds. Is the water table a problem on The Old Course?

[Sean_A]

Do folks think that the powers that be are envisioning more misses right with the bunkers pushed greenside and that this area is easy to recover from?  From memory, right isn't bad at all, but I could be wrong.  

Ciao

That's what I'd suspect, Sean. Right is flat and safe(ish) on many of these holes, isn't it?

In which case, why are you so concerned about a flat area that could well have been flattened when the green was extended to the right about the same time the short bunkers were installed?  It could well be that Hawtree thinks he can tie into this area quite easily rather than the usual alternative of whacking a bunker in.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Do folks think that the powers that be are envisioning more misses right with the bunkers pushed greenside and that this area is easy to recover from?  From memory, right isn't bad at all, but I could be wrong.  

Ciao

That's what I'd suspect, Sean. Right is flat and safe(ish) on many of these holes, isn't it?

In which case, why are you so concerned about a flat area that could well have been flattened when the green was extended to the right about the same time the short bunkers were installed?  It could well be that Hawtree thinks he can tie into this area quite easily rather than the usual alternative of whacking a bunker in.

Ciao

Tying flat in to flat isn't that easy when you are going against the lay of the land. Said something about this on another thread which I can't find.

To be honest, I've said too much and am a little tired justifying my opinions.

I am dead set against this work but really hope that Martin Hawtree makes a good job of it.

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, Several fundamentals come to mind. Intent, as suggested is important. According to their (R&A) justification, its to toughen up the course for the pros.
 It doesn't sound right, that softening equates to more difficulty. But that will depend primarily on the maintenance practices. Somebody correct me if i'm wrong, but hasn't the trend, on TOC been for softer, more consistent, conditions?

I'm not familiar enough with all the changes, but, the knocking down of fairway and surround contours, suggests that the possible real justification is to get the tourist around faster.

On another principle, I've found when the motivation is to prevent a player from accomplishing something, be it maintenance practice, or architectural change, It's thoughtless and a bad idea. Ideas that are grounded in encouraging and motivating the player to creatively accomplish the task at hand, is what separates quality design.

[Jeff_Mingay]

On another principle, I've found when the motivation is to prevent a player from accomplishing something, be it maintenance practice, or architectural change, It's thoughtless and a bad idea. Ideas that are grounded in encouraging and motivating the player to creatively accomplish the task at hand, is what separates quality design.

You're right, Adam.

Great golf course architecture isn't about "easy" and/or "hard". It's all about creating interest. The easy and hard stuff takes care of itself in different ways on an interesting course, be it through a golfers' mental and physical states any given day, the so-called "rub of the green", the weather, etc.

If the golf course is interesting, it's timeless. It will endure. If it's just "easy" or "hard", the course is totally forgettable.