What changes have been made to Muirfield and Hoylake for their Opens?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

And who has made these changes, if any? If changes have been made what do you think of them?

[Sean_A]

Mark

We know Hoylake has slowly been stripped of its famous use of OOB over the years.  The last incident being the destruction of Royal to allow Open visitors to walk behind the green during the 2006 Open.  It was also a safety measure for the road.  I think Steel did this work.  I like the new hole, but I dislike the  erosion of OOB at Hoylake.  OOB was the signature of the course and what it made it stand out among other championship venues.  The club ws stuck between a rock and a hard place; effect the changes or don't host the Open.

Ciao   

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

Muirfield,  I don't think anyone has reported the details here.  I guess they thought it wasn't hard enough in 2002    We know the 9th has been extended by 50yds, I think and the club had to give up a lot of land to The Renaissance club to do so.  I heard that bunkers had been brought in closer to greens.

Hoylake (last changes).  I think the loss of the Royal hole was a bad move.  The claim was that it was needed for crowd movement but I think it was more about increasing the hole length.  The greens on 17/18 (or 1/2 Open) are very heavily contoured and are unlike any green, past or present, at Hoylake.  The new 3rd green is better.  The new bunkers are a weird pastiche.

The writing was on the wall for The Old Course.  They just want to make these courses harder for Open's.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sean,

I went to the BUDA dinner at Royal Liverpool and there was talk then of changing the 1st and 2nd (17th and 18th) greens as they were felt to be out of character with the rest of the course. I don't know if this has happened.

Mark.

[Adam Lawrence]

Mark

Muirfield,  I don't think anyone has reported the details here.  I guess they thought it wasn't hard enough in 2002    We know the 9th has been extended by 50yds, I think and the club had to give up a lot of land to The Renaissance club to do so.  I heard that bunkers had been brought in closer to greens.

Hoylake (last changes).  I think the loss of the Royal hole was a bad move.  The claim was that it was needed for crowd movement but I think it was more about increasing the hole length.  The greens on 17/18 (or 1/2 Open) are very heavily contoured and are unlike any green, past or present, at Hoylake.  The new 3rd green is better.  The new bunkers are a weird pastiche.

The writing was on the wall for The Old Course.  They just want to make these courses harder for Open's.

I mourn the old Royal, but it's hard to see how spectators moved round that part of what is already a tight site with the green hard against a public road.

[Paul_Turner]

Lets expand the courses.  Are there any changes to British Open rota courses that GCAers overwhelmingly approve of?

Carnoustie (Hawtree)

The big change was to the 3rd.  The old hole was a good hole, a bit of a respite compared with the rest and actually pretty (for Carnoustie).  I've only seen the new hole on TV and it was extensively reworked in the fairway and green.  I think they wanted players to hit driver more, but that didn't work as nearly eveyone hit irons.

Turnberry (Mackenzie/Ebert)

16th seemed to go through the biggest change.  I don't know the course well enough.

Lytham (Mackenzie/Ebert)

7th green had a lot of contour added.  I believe this was an old Fowler green.

Birkdale (Hawtree)

All the greens redone.  I think some of them twice?  They were rebuilt with changes after the '92 Open when the surfaces were heavily criticized.  In general now the greens have a lot more humps/bumps/swales than before '92.  For Martin Hawtree it all expanded from the Birkdale changes...many alterations to famous links after then...Lahinch etc

[Adam Lawrence]

Good questions. I really liked the work to the third at Carnoustie. True most people hit irons, but I stood and watched play there for quite a while, and there were a bunch of different approaches taken. Essentially it seemed a three option hole. Very wide scoring range, which seems unarguably a good thing. For me - HIT!

Turnberry 16 - was my first Open there so can't compare to previous events. Shaping work on inside of new dogleg very very good, increased angle didn't appear to me to make much difference. Move required to extend 17th. Verdict - HIT(ish)

Lytham 7 - didn't know the original, can't speak to it.

Birkdale - imo the greens there are mostly pretty dull. I like the 17th far more than Martin H does, based on a conversation I had with him this summer. Saw Tom Watson play a genius recovery shot there during the Open, using slopes behind the flag to bring the ball back the holeside. That hole - HIT! (If people say 'Oh it's out of character', then maybe the problem is with the other greens!)

[Paul_Turner]

I forgot Sandwich

The only big change was the new Suez 14th green.  It's much more heavily contoured than the old green, particulary in the swales and surrounds.  Not sure it's better.  Harder for sure.

[Adam Lawrence]

I quite like that one too. Fits ok, contour is hardly out of place at Sandwich, tight to the OB so pretty scary approach, especially in wind. One of the best things about 2010 Open IMO was seeing a par five play so tough.

[Paul_Turner]

Adam

I think it's a bit our of place on that flat portion of land though.  All pushed up.

[Niall C]

Turnberry - you should consider the impact on the 17th in judging work to 16th which after all was primarily done to facilitate the 17th tee going back. Made it a harder birdie 4 for the pro's whereas before I would imagine most were getting up readily enough in two.

The approach to the 16th is now a bit more of an angle therefore making it a bit more interesting IMO so overall I'd make that a hit.

Unfortunately the lines of buinkers on the first were a definite miss both in terms of aesthetics and effect.

Troon - MacKenzie & Ebert again. Created mounding on old green area down right hand side of 13th, however that is minimal compared to what is being considered including new tee on 15 and possibly the old 6th green being revived. A case of wait and see.

Carnoustie - an awful lot of work was done and conceived by John Philp, the head greenkeeper, before the more recent work. Work inlcuded mlounding behind 3rd green as well as raising the approach to the 15th green.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Adam

I think it's a bit our of place on that flat portion of land though.  All pushed up.

I quite like the new 14th.  I agree the green is slightly awkward looking as its neither high or low enough.  I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to create a much larger raised pad stretching all the way to the bunkers short left.  The sand would then have some place to hunker down and I think down the right about there is a slight natural rise which could facilitate a smooth transition.  It would be a huge bonus for handicap guys to find the plateau and avoid a blindish approach or even a severe bunker shot.  Of course, it would be a hell of a lot more work to create. 

I also think Carnastie's 3rd is an improvement. 

Ciao

[Frank Pont]

Interesting to see that most respondents like most of the changes made to these Open courses.

[Paul_Turner]

The one common factor is that if a green is on the subtle, easy, or boring side then it's more likely to be replaced with a highly contoured one.  The Eden green is the only one I can think of that has been softened.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I contacted Anthony Shone, the club's archivist, at Royal Liverpool. He seems to be in favour of the very few changes that have been made:

The Hoylake course will be much the same as 2006 for 2014,  Our 17th, the 1st for the Open, has had some fine tuning to the bunkers off the tee and the green has been lowered a bit-- both are improvements.  There have been a few extensions to swales round greens, some bunker tweaking and 2 or 3 holes lengthened. The bunkering round our 3rd is much better.  There is a new tee at our 5th further to the south making the hole a slight left to right dog leg which I think makes for a very good hole.

As always the course will be made by the weather conditions and if the rough is as it is now there will be no need for the defences that have been put in at some holes to prevent players cutting corners and not being penalised if they don't make the carry!

He knows everything about the club's history and the development of the course and, as you will see from the tone of his comments, nothing drastic is planned nor has been undertaken. The lowering of the 17th/1st green will probably please many.

[Ally Mcintosh]

So then – what changes have been made to Muirfield.

Paul highlighted extension to 9th tee and bunkers moved closer to greens. Without knowing anything further, I think it’s a fairly safe guess that some undulations have been introduced around the run-offs of a few greens as well – pure speculation on my part so don’t take that as even a rumour.

EDIT - Should have gone to the Muirfield website:

"Over the winters of 2010 and 2011, changes were made at fifteen holes following a review by Martin Hawtree to ensure that Muirfield remained a suitable challenge for the world's best professional and amateur golfers. In summary those changes included the introduction of new bunkers in selected drive areas; the relocation of greenside bunkers to tighten the entrances to greens; the extension of greens to provide more championship pin positions and the introduction of six new championship tees taking the course to 7245 yards in length. While many in number, the changes were subtle in nature and the essential characteristic of Muirfield has been carefully retained. The most noticeable difference would be the 9th Hole which is now a truly testing par 5, particularly into the prevailing wind.

The work was commissioned and completed on schedule and has received universal approval from players and commentators alike. The new championship layout will be played in competition for the first time in July 2013 at the Open"

[Frank Pont]

Just got Richard Lathams excellent books on Muirfield, Hoylake, Roy County Down and Woodhall Spa.
Great resources if you want to know in detail what has happened at these courses over the years.  (in summary a hell of a lot)

Every top club in GBI should have such a book made to preserve their history!!!

http://www.richardlathamgolfbooks.com/

[Niall C]

Frank

Thanks for that. Never heard of Richard but I like the idea of his books although I may have to save up for some of them 

Niall