TOC - which proposed changes do you agree with?

[Mark Chaplin]

There appears to be a little disquiet around the proposed changes to TOC. Do you agree with any of them?

[Rich Goodale]

Mark

Could you (or anybody for that matter) please post exactly what changes are planned to be made.  I've tried a bit and found nothing other than regurgitations of a mostly non-specific press release.

Thanks

Rich

[Sean Walsh]

That is part of the problem. 

There's a lot of re-contour this, move this bunker that way a bit.

Of the specifics the changes to 17 and the reshaping the "spur" on 4 appear the most specific. 

Of those 17 appears to be in keeping with the nature of the hole and a desire to increase the fear factor of "The Road Hole Bunker".  Done well that could be fine, possibly more of a restoration than a change.

All the changes I've heard about for 4 on the other hand are terrible. 

[Ronald Montesano]

From http://anthonypioppi.com/golf/golf/1001/significant-changes-to-the-old-course-for-the-2012-open-championship

Phase 1

On the 2nd hole, the two bunkers right and short of the green will be moved closer to the right edge of the green. The ground to the right of the green will also be recontoured to create more undulations and the width of 3rd tee will be reduced to accommodate this. Two bunkers on the right side of the fairway, near the 3rd Championship tee, will be removed.

On the 7th, the large depression in the landing area of the fairway will be filled in and a slight mound created. The area to the right of the green will be remodelled to create more undulations.

On the 11th, the back left portion of the green will be lowered to create more hole location options.

On the 17th, the Road Bunker will be widened by half a metre at the right hand side and a small portion of the front of the green will be recontoured to enable it to gather more approach shots landing in that area.

Phase 2

On the 3rd hole, the first fairway bunker on the right will be removed. A new fairway bunker will be added into the bank on the right hand side about 275 yards from the Championship tee.

On the 4th, the acute spur formation on the left hand side of the fairway will be reduced and the bunker on the right hand side of the green will be moved closer to its edge. The ground to the back right of the green will be recontoured.

On the 6th, the ground to the right of the green will be recontoured.

On the 9th, a fairway bunker will be added short and left of the green, about 25 yards to the left and diagonally towards the green from the last bunker on the right of the fairway.                     

On the 15th, the ground to the back right of the green will be recontoured to create more undulations.

[Rich Goodale]

Yes, Stan, I have already read Anthony's regurgitation, but as Peggy Lee once said:  "Is that all there is?"

[Mark Pearce]

Rich,

Having seen the information pack that went out to HCEG members before the changes recently made to Muirfield I would imagine that the answer to your question is yes, that's all there is.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Shouldn't there be a Planning Application and Permit Documents available so interested parties can view them on the Internet?

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

Having seen the information pack that went out to HCEG members before the changes recently made to Muirfield I would imagine that the answer to your question is yes, that's all there is.

Thanks, Mark

I suspect (hope?) that once the Doak campaign gathers full steam they will be shamed into more specifics.  Unlike Muirfield, TOC is not a private entity, in reality or (help me here counsellor!) law.

Rihc

[Adam Lawrence]

What Stan (Ron?) posted above is indeed the complete text of the Notes to Editors section at the end of the Trust's press release, detailing the changes. Here's the rest of the release in full - I think Tony's quoted basically the whole thing, but for the record....


A number of improvements are being planned to the Old Course to help maintain its challenge for the world’s top golfers ahead of the return of The Open Championship to St Andrews in 2015.
Renowned golf course architect Martin Hawtree was commissioned by St Andrews Links Trust, which manages the Old Course and the other six courses at the Home of Golf, and The R&A Championship Committee, which organises golf’s oldest major championship, to assess potential changes which would enhance the challenge for elite players without unduly affecting club and visiting golfers while remaining true to the special character of the Old Course.
Martin Hawtree’s recommendations have now been agreed by the St Andrews Links Trustees and Links Management Committee and The R&A Championship Committee.
The work is planned to take place in two phases over this winter and next. The first phase involves work on the 2nd, 7th, 11th and 17th holes. The second phase will take place in winter 2013/14 with work on the 3rd, 4th, 6th, 9th and 15th holes.
The work will widen the Road Bunker on the 17th hole by half a metre at the right hand side and recontour a small portion of the front of the green to enable it to gather more approach shots landing in that area.
A new bunker will be created on the right of the 3rd fairway and another on the left of the 9th fairway 20 yards short of the green. Bunkers will be repositioned closer to the right edge of the 2nd green and the right of the 4th green. A portion of the back left of the 11th green will be lowered to create more hole location options.
Euan Loudon, Chief Executive of St Andrews Links Trust, said, “The Old Course is renowned as one of the great Open venues and its continued prominence on the Open roster is crucially important to the economy and reputation of St Andrews. The Old Course has evolved over time and the Links Trust is delighted to be working with the Championship Committee in order to maintain the challenge of the course for elite tournament players and the thousands of golfers who play here each year.”        1 of 3

Peter Dawson, Chief Executive of The R&A, said, “We have considered the challenge presented to the world’s top golfers by each of The Open Championship venues and carried out a programme of improvements over the last ten years. While some holes have been lengthened on the Old Course in recent years it has otherwise remained largely unaltered. The Championship Committee felt there was an opportunity to stiffen its defences in some places to ensure it remains as challenging as ever to the professionals. The proposals from Martin Hawtree should place more of a premium on accuracy and ball control while retaining the spirit and character of the Old Course.”

Ends

Notes to Editors
The full list of changes is as follows:
Phase 1
On the 2nd hole, the two bunkers right and short of the green will be moved closer to the right edge of the green. The ground to the right of the green will also be recontoured to create more undulations and the width of 3rd tee will be reduced to accommodate this. Two bunkers on the right side of the fairway, near the 3rd Championship tee, will be removed.
On the 7th, the large depression in the landing area of the fairway will be filled in and a slight mound created. The area to the right of the green will be remodelled to create more undulations.
On the 11th, the back left portion of the green will be lowered to create more hole location options.
On the 17th, the Road Bunker will be widened by half a metre at the right hand side and a small portion of the front of the green will be recontoured to enable it to gather more approach shots landing in that area.
Phase 2
On the 3rd hole, the first fairway bunker on the right will be removed. A new fairway bunker will be added into the bank on the right hand side about 275 yards from the Championship tee.
On the 4th, the acute spur formation on the left hand side of the fairway will be reduced and the bunker on the right hand side of the green will be moved closer to its edge. The ground to the back right of the green will be recontoured.
On the 6th, the ground to the right of the green will be recontoured.
On the 9th, a fairway bunker will be added short and left of the green, about 25 yards to the left and diagonally towards the green from the last bunker on the right of the fairway.         
On the 15th, the ground to the back right of the green will be recontoured to create more undulations.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I tell you something - "re-contouring" the right of greens 2, 4, 6, 7 & 15 to provide more "undulations" is something that is a HUGE question mark for me.

[Mark Chaplin]

John why would they need planning permission and permits? To 98% of the population it's an area of mown grass and they wouldn't want their local authority spending time and money on such applications.

[Mark Pearce]

I tell you something - "re-contouring" the right of greens 2, 4, 6, 7 & 15 to provide more "undulations" is something that is a HUGE question mark for me.

This highlights ambiguity in the text.  Does "to the back right of the green" mean that the green itself will be "recontoured" or does it refer to land behind and to the right of the green (the fringe and surrounds, presumably)?

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Mark,

There are many reasons why a Planning Permit Application is required for construction work – wether on a golf course or a farmers field.

However the main reason that any constructional activity has to pass through a Planning permit procedure is so that it can be checked by the Planning Authorities and their experts, and more importantly interested parties have the opportunity to register any objections.

Although many golfers and the public may think a golf course is just a harmless grass area it can be subject to many laws and directives that have to be respected.
Just to mention a few which may not be apparent but need to be checked.:-

- Ground water protected area
- Existing underground service pipes
- Exposure of land fill site
- Archeological sensitive area
and there are more, but I hope you get the gist of my argument.

As you can see, even the digging of a drainage ditch can reveal many problems.

A consultant Golf Course Architect should, at the very least, be in touch with the planning authorities regarding potential problems, and normally would supply plans and cross-sections for his client to obtain a building permit.

No landowner has exclusive rights over their property and noone is above the law.

[Sean Walsh]

"On the 6th, the ground to the right of the green will be recontoured."

Will be interesting teeing off from 7 with this new "re-contouring".  The only thing right of the 6th green is the 7th tee. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Agreed its hard to know much on some of the recontouring proposals.  I would usually put a reason in for a change like that in any description.  "Recontour to achieve XXX...."

I would probably agree with some of the moving of bunkers closer to the greens.  TOC can't be much different than other places in that the greens grow in and bunkers tend to "drift away" from the surfaces.

Sounds like they are trying to narrow the opening to 17 and make the gathering contour more pronounced.  I would guess most here would agree with that, although I can never predict.....

Lastly, not 100% sure what is planned for 11, but having missed long there in 1980, I still remember the impossibility of keeping a chip on the green from back there, even at 1980 green speeds, which were considerable.  Frankly, if I remember how scary it was 32 years later, I wouldn't object to a sympathetic softening of the back to front slope there.

[Jud_T]

I would probably agree with some of the moving of bunkers closer to the greens.  TOC can't be much different than other places in that the greens grow in and bunkers tend to "drift away" from the surfaces.

Jeff,

If this is in fact the case, which is far from clear, if anything wouldn't the proper thing be to recapture the greens and bring them back out to their original margins, particularly at a place of such historical significance as the Old Course?

[Mark Pearce]

I would probably agree with some of the moving of bunkers closer to the greens.  TOC can't be much different than other places in that the greens grow in and bunkers tend to "drift away" from the surfaces.

Jeff,

If this is in fact the case, which is far from clear, if anything wouldn't the proper thing be to recapture the greens and bring them back out to their original margins, particularly at a place of such historical significance as the Old Course?

Quite.

[Sean_A]

I wrote before that I like the sound of changes to the 17th.  

I don't think I understand any of the other changes except for those proposed on the 9th and 11th.  I disagree completely with the suggestion for the 11th.  I also disagree with the suggestion for the 9th.  This is not out of preservation - the 9th is a poor stepchild which has nothing in common with the rest of the course save for a few cheesy looking centreline bunkers.  This hole needs a complete re-think, not a band aid.  I don't think the proposal goes nearly far enough.  If this were the only work done to TOC I would be more than happy.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

I think Sean echoes much of my reaction. Either you are for preservation, or you are for improvement, and it seems clear to me that, if the latter, the place to start would be with a redesign of the ninth.

[Tony_Muldoon]

"On the 6th, the ground to the right of the green will be recontoured."

Will be interesting teeing off from 7 with this new "re-contouring".  The only thing right of the 6th green is the 7th tee.  

Which tends to suggest the remodelling will be on the green itself.   One of the problems with TOC for tournament play is the interesting pinable areas tend to be at the centre of the double greens, this slows down play as people wait for the other half to clear before hitting their approach. Making more pinable areas away from the centre could be a good thing. This would also work to the advantage of the every day player who doesn’t get to play many of the tournament pin positions.  With 12 often driveable this could save a lot of time.

Coould be a fine thing but it’s the lack of clarity in the proposals, when they know this will be a sensitive issue, that rankles.



The little consipiricist inside me  wonders if the timing is entirely  coincidental with the recent attack on the R&A by two Tory politicians for its policy of holding the Open at Male Only Clubs.  Good time to have a distracting debate about an issue you might win?

[Tony_Muldoon]

I think Sean echoes much of my reaction. Either you are for preservation, or you are for improvement, and it seems clear to me that, if the latter, the place to start would be with a redesign of the ninth.

+3.

But then thy'd have to call this more than a few tweeks right?


One change I'd approve of is Dawson handing over the reigns. Seems like a certain arrogance at play here from someone who's had the top job for some time.  He's not entirely to blame, but he's the best place to start.

[Mark Chaplin]

John - I cannot imagine many councils have experts on golf course architecture on the staff. Who would Fife council consult; The Links Trust, The R&A?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I would probably agree with some of the moving of bunkers closer to the greens.  TOC can't be much different than other places in that the greens grow in and bunkers tend to "drift away" from the surfaces.

Jeff,

If this is in fact the case, which is far from clear, if anything wouldn't the proper thing be to recapture the greens and bring them back out to their original margins, particularly at a place of such historical significance as the Old Course?

Jud, fair enough, given my understanding that the greens have been mowed in and out over the years, and mowing out is both easier than most places and the way they have traditionally reclaimed green surface.

That being said, I can see that the green shapes have changed back and forth over the years, and so why is this so much more a big whoop than others, other than the fact that gca.com hadn't been around for the others?  I can also see the practical side of the R and A deciding to keep green sizes the same/smaller as a better challenge for the Open players, and the super agreeing in the name of reducing his humongous green size to save maintenance.

[Mark Pearce]

Jeff,

One of the outstanding features of TOC is the size of its green.  Reducing them would really be a heresy.  As to the maintenance budget, I imagine TOC is one of a relatively small number of courses in the world where that really isn't an issue, given the income the course generates.

[Alex Miller]

I don't agree with moving these bunkers closer to the greens. Move (mow) the greens closer to the bunkers and give the pros tougher pins! I want a championship set up, but an every man's course!

Also I understand the bunker on 17 has been reshaped a number of times, but recontouring the front to allow it to collect more shots? Well, while vague, I am weary of this proposed change as I hope it would not get in the way of someone's attempt to run the ball on to the green and around the bunker to the back of the green.

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