[Frank Pont]

Tom,

Great news the American and Oz GCA bodies are behind the petition!

Make sure EIGCA knows this asap, that will make it very difficult for them to duck the issue! Who are the EIGCA members on this board? Can we get their commitment to publicly lobby for a similar stance?

The first replies from R&A members are that they did not know about these plans, and they are not amused. A person who was very high in the R&A hierarchy told me that he never knew or understood who actually gave the orders to make changes to the Open courses. His belief is it comes directly from Dawson, who according to this person has always been a big proponent of making the Open courses more difficult.

[Michael Goldstein]

This is a shame but glad the plans have finally been made public.  The more noise against these proposals the better.

I suspect that Tom D is right and that the decision has been driven by a select group of folks.   

[Ivan Morris]

Stop abusing me, boys! I'm not the target. As it happens, the Hawtree changes at Sunningdale turned out very well and my 'worries' were unnecessary. If the changes at TOC turn out similarly will any of you be man enough to apologize? If it's a disaster, I'll genuinely be as disappointed as many of you. I'm just not joining your gang, that's all. Aim your ire at the R & A.    

[Frank Pont]

Stop abusing me, boys! I'm not the target. As it happens, the Hawtree changes at Sunningdale turned out very well and my 'worries' were unnecessary. If the changes at TOC turn out similarly will any of you be man enough to apologize? If it's a disaster, I'll genuinely be as disappointed as many of you. I'm just not joining your gang, that's all. Aim your ire at the R & A.    

Ivan,

Not sure I agree with your assesment of the Sunningdale changes, but you are right that we should focus on R&A and Links Trust and respect your opinion.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Stop abusing me, boys! I'm not the target. As it happens, the Hawtree changes at Sunningdale turned out very well and my 'worries' were unnecessary. If the changes at TOC turn out similarly will any of you be man enough to apologize? If it's a disaster, I'll genuinely be as disappointed as many of you. I'm just not joining your gang, that's all. Aim your ire at the R & A.    

Ivan,

I see Sunningdale as very different: It was constructed in 1901, was altered dramatically in the 20's and has evolved through nature, maintenance practices and tweaking since that time... Quite a bit of it was actually "built"... Much of the Hawtree work since was bringing some shape back in to the bunkers.

If someone decided to completely overhaul the style of TOC bunkers, I'd be less concerned even though it would have a much more dramatic visual effect than the changes proposed and would probably find a much larger number of people up in arms.... Altering the contours of the ground at TOC is sacrilege in my book because it is those contours that we've all taken inspiration from so much...

Only yesterday I was looking at a photo of the 11th and noting the beautiful horizon line on the back of the green, above the Eden estuary. That will no doubt change with the work on the back-left.

I do agree with you however that we are quite often willing to berate possible work on older courses before seeing the final outcome and - like you at Sunningdale - that final outcome is often either quite pleasing or fairly unnoticeable making you wonder what all the uproar was about at the start. But the work has to be fully justified and for the right reasons. In this case I don't believe it is and additionally, the Old Course stands alone as something to be preserved.

[Neil White]

All,

This is something that I have feared for a long time - not only with TOC but courses with architectural historic importance in general.

With regards to the actual phases being planned - when are they looking to start with phase 1?  How long is there for voices to be heard?

Neil.

[Rich Goodale]

Ally

Most of the Old Course was "built" too.  Why exactly does it get not get a pass whereas Sunningdale does?  Just because?

Rich

[Philip Spogard]

Hi guys – and Tom in particular.

For what it is worth, on a personal level, (and being an EIGCA associate member), I (like many others) believe TOC to be the ‘holiest grail’ in golf, which should not be interfered with in any other way than what is necessary for it to remain healthy – and in no way to accommodate the random tournament play the course receives.

I am sure Martin Hawtree could do a good job there, as he has with so many other courses around the world, but holes like the Eden and the Road Hole are a source of inspiration and the backbone of our profession and the game we all love. Starting to alter these iconic golfing experiences – even if it was somehow arguably possible to improve them – can only be the first step on a very uncertain path.

[Sean Walsh]

Ivan,

Apparently those holding an opinion different to yours on this thread are "aggravators, indignant, sure of ourselves" and have no right to have a view because we haven't played TOC enough.  

You then claim to be the one abused and also pre-emptively call us unmanly because thanks to your prescience you know we won't give any credit if the work meets with your obviously impeccable view of good golf course architecture.

I'm also still waiting for your adjudication on whether I get to have a valid opinion or not.  If you have a constructive argument like those Rihc and Scott have advanced happy to hear it.  Spare me the false victimhood and namecalling.



 

[Mark Chaplin]

Phillip - an Open Championship every 5 years and the Dunhill pro-am, St Andrews Links Trophy and the St Rule Trophy annually is hardly random tournament play.

[Frank Pont]

Hi guys – and Tom in particular.

For what it is worth, on a personal level, (and being an EIGCA associate member), I (like many others) believe TOC to be the ‘holiest grail’ in golf, which should not be interfered with in any other way than what is necessary for it to remain healthy – and in no way to accommodate the random tournament play the course receives.

I am sure Martin Hawtree could do a good job there, as he has with so many other courses around the world, but holes like the Eden and the Road Hole are a source of inspiration and the backbone of our profession and the game we all love. Starting to alter these iconic golfing experiences – even if it was somehow arguably possible to improve them – can only be the first step on a very uncertain path.

Hi Philip,

Good to see that you as a EIGCA member are joining the discussion! Also very good to see you are against tthe proposed changes to the classic greens of TOC.

What can you, and other EIGCA members, specifically do to push the leadership of the EIGCA to actively take a stance against the proposed changes to TOC?

FP

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

Most of the Old Course was "built" too.  Why exactly does it get not get a pass whereas Sunningdale does?  Just because?

Rich

Those contours I love weren't built Rich.... The 17th green certainly but almost everything through the green is as was (unless you want to point out the areas I'm wrong - I'm sure there are a couple of small ones)... I don't go to Sunningdale to study the micro-contours on the fairways or even around the greens... Plus I'm presuming Colt constructed many of the greens there - although admittedly my historic knowledge of Sunningdale is pretty low...

[Philip Spogard]

Mark -

You are off course right about that - few courses in the world sees that much professional tournament play. But to carry out significant changes on some of the most iconic and inspiring holes in golf to cater for what is less than 1% of the play on the course does not, in my opinion, seem like a 'justifiable' starting point when it comes to TOC.

[Sean Walsh]

Mark,

That is true but there are also 30,000 plus rounds from club golfers on a public course the other 45 to 49 weeks a year.  

How many of these club golfers finish the round and decide 2, 4 and 17 need to be more difficult? That the hollow in the fairway on 7, which they are 20 yards behind needs to be filled in (FWIW the maintenance of 7 could be dramatically improved for club golfers but that's another story)? That what 9 really needs is a bunker on the left so it can have bunkers left, right and centre? That the back of 4 needs to be re-contoured?

I am not of the opinion that no changes can be made to the course just that they should only be made after a more transparent and considered process and primarily for the needs/benefit of its biggest constituency, handicap golfers.  

[Philip Spogard]

Frank -

Let us see what happens. I think Tom has made the initiative and we will all wait for a response.

[Rich Goodale]

Ally

Most of the Old Course was "built" too.  Why exactly does it get not get a pass whereas Sunningdale does?  Just because?

Rich

Those contours I love weren't built Rich.... The 17th green certainly but almost everything through the green is as was (unless you want to point out the areas I'm wrong - I'm sure there are a couple of small ones)... I don't go to Sunningdale to study the micro-contours on the fairways or even around the greens... Plus I'm presuming Colt constructed many of the greens there - although admittedly my historic knowledge of Sunningdale is pretty low...

Ally

In 1855 what is now the front nine was a rabbit warren completely covered in gorse.  In 1856 OTM (still under Robertson's supervision) bulldozed (or horsedozed) all of those whins, as well as extending nearly all of the 9 existing greens into double greens.  This wasn't done by some sort of magical revelation but by horsepower and manpower.  All the bunkers on the front 9 were manufactured, then over over the past 150 years.  Later on, in addiiton to the 17th, the 18th was completely rebuilt by OTM, including the Valley of Sin.  I would be very surprised if anywhere near as much as 1/2 of those contours that we all love were found and not "built."

Iconoclastically

Rich

[Mark Chaplin]

Obviously the Links Trophy for men and the St Rule for ladies are amateur events.

I'm not advocating change or doing nothing, I don't know the course well enough to have an opinion. For anyone who has spent time on committee asking for too much opinion gets you nowhere!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

Most of the Old Course was "built" too.  Why exactly does it get not get a pass whereas Sunningdale does?  Just because?

Rich

Those contours I love weren't built Rich.... The 17th green certainly but almost everything through the green is as was (unless you want to point out the areas I'm wrong - I'm sure there are a couple of small ones)... I don't go to Sunningdale to study the micro-contours on the fairways or even around the greens... Plus I'm presuming Colt constructed many of the greens there - although admittedly my historic knowledge of Sunningdale is pretty low...

Ally

In 1855 what is now the front nine was a rabbit warren completely covered in gorse.  In 1856 OTM (still under Robertson's supervision) bulldozed (or horsedozed) all of those whins, as well as extending nearly all of the 9 existing greens into double greens.  This wasn't done by some sort of magical revelation but by horsepower and manpower.  All the bunkers on the front 9 were manufactured, then over over the past 150 years.  Later on, in addiiton to the 17th, the 18th was completely rebuilt by OTM, including the Valley of Sin.  I would be very surprised if anywhere near as much as 1/2 of those contours that we all love were found and not "built."

Iconoclastically

Rich

Rich,

I'll have to disagree then.... You really think when they cleared those whins, they did mass-shaping of the land at the same time?... That all / most of those bunkers were artificially placed for strategy (although many of the less interesting ones down the right side of the front nine clearly were)?... When they extended the double greens were they constructed or were there just two pins put in an area previously used for one - I'm certainly willing to believe a few of the greens were given a helping hand in creation (I knew about 18 for sure)?...

I am not naive when I talk about the natural ground at TOC.... It is unlike any other and it is what architects all aspire to... If you think Old Tom created half the contours when he took the gorse out, then he has a better crew of shapers than New Tom (Doak).... I haven't seen any sign of it on other OTM courses.... Perhaps it was just luck when he turned it over?...

[Rich Goodale]

Mark

You apparently have not read "Reminiscences of Golf on St. Andrews Links" written by James Balfour in 1887.  It is available in reprint for under a tenner.  Money very well spent if you are a lover of the Old Course.  And if you think that the extremely narrow 1855 course had greens that were up to 120 yards wide, you are dreaming.  Read Balfour for a wake up call.

As for the land being "unlike any other," that is meaningless Gary Player-type pap.  Any piece of land is unlike any other.  It is what man sees in it and DOES WITH IT that makes places like St. Andrews special.  IMHO, of course....

Rich

[Frank Pont]

Frank -

Let us see what happens. I think Tom has made the initiative and we will all wait for a response.

Philip, your stance is clear. Will you however sign the petition if EIGCA does nothing?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Mark

You apparently have not read "Reminiscences of Golf on St. Andrews Links" written by James Balfour in 1887.  It is available in reprint for under a tenner.  Money very well spent if you are a lover of the Old Course.  And if you think that the extremely narrow 1855 course had greens that were up to 120 yards wide, you are dreaming.  Read Balfour for a wake up call.

As for the land being "unlike any other," that is meaningless Gary Player-type pap.  Any piece of land is unlike any other.  It is what man sees in it and DOES WITH IT that makes places like St. Andrews special.  IMHO, of course....

Rich

Rich, I'm sure your last post should have been directed at me, not Mark.

Given that all the changes to TOC were effectively pre-golf course architecture as we know it, I think it's valid that the land has had a bigger influence than any other course (by a distance) on all design that has followed since...Gary Player "Pap" or not, the land is "unlike any other" because of that influence...

If Old Tom created all that great golf, why did he never come close again? My guess is that the more the hand of man is evident, the less interesting the ground...

You are right though - I haven't read Balfour

[Rich Goodale]

Sorry Ally, I did mean you!

OTM wasn't a no-op.  He found/built Prestwick in 1851, which was the ONLY Open venue from 1860-1872.  By 1873, the work he did on TOC from 1865 onwards finally raised it to a standard deemed worthy of an Open....   He also found/built Dornoch and Lahinch and Westward Ho! and Lundin/Leven etc. etc.  Of those, IMO, Lahinch and Prestwick are the equal of the Old Course and Dornoch is significantly superior.  But I am biased, of course, as we are all.

You should but and read Balfour.  It is THE best and first significant architectural analysis of a golf course and its evoltion published in the 19th century.

Rich

[Philip Spogard]

Frank -

Let us see what happens. I think Tom has made the initiative and we will all wait for a response.

Philip, your stance is clear. Will you however sign the petition if EIGCA does nothing?

Frank -

TOC is my favorite spot on Earth. I believe it to be awe-inspiring and fundamental to what I do. But before getting all carried away lets see what the next weeks will bring and take it from there. My personal opinion is that the greens should not be changed to cater for the relatively small amount of professional (or high level Amateur) golf. (Bunkers are a slightly different subject as discussed previously on this thread).

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sorry Ally, I did mean you!

OTM wasn't a no-op.  He found/built Prestwick in 1851, which was the ONLY Open venue from 1860-1872.  By 1873, the work he did on TOC from 1865 onwards finally raised it to a standard deemed worthy of an Open....   He also found/built Dornoch and Lahinch and Westward Ho! and Lundin/Leven etc. etc.  Of those, IMO, Lahinch and Prestwick are the equal of the Old Course and Dornoch is significantly superior.  But I am biased, of course, as we are all.

You should but and read Balfour.  It is THE best and first significant architectural analysis of a golf course and its evoltion published in the 19th century.

Rich

I will search out Balfour indeed Rich... I'm sure MHM is watching so want to word this carefully... TOC has obviously had work done to it throughout its history... But it it has a lot less work done a lot less recently than just about any other course... You mention Lahinch - there is one OTM hole remaining there... It is Dell and we're not even sure that was his... When he left Lahinch, 13 holes were still on the other side of the road...

[Frank Pont]

Frank -

Let us see what happens. I think Tom has made the initiative and we will all wait for a response.

Philip, your stance is clear. Will you however sign the petition if EIGCA does nothing?

Frank -

TOC is my favorite spot on Earth. I believe it to be awe-inspiring and fundamental to what I do. But before getting all carried away lets see what the next weeks will bring and take it from there. My personal opinion is that the greens should not be changed to cater for the relatively small amount of professional (or high level Amateur) golf. (Bunkers are a slightly different subject as discussed previously on this thread).

Philip,

I thought my question if you are willing to sign the petition if the EIGCAa does nothing was rather straightforward to answer with either a yes or no, something most others have already done on this forum.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()